to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

[molokoco]

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

I don't know about health issues (as in I am not well enough informed) but if the government really wants people to get back into work, it needs to get firm with employers about flexible working (and that includes lifting its silly 3 days a week in the office policy for civil service workers too). Employers also need to stop being ageist and putting anyone over 50 on the redundancy heap. At the other end they need to stop having ridiculous recruitment policies and procedures for young people and give them a chance. That involves training and patience.

And we need adult education back so people can do courses for different or better jobs.

As for IR35, if people won't work because of it, that's on them. They're probably the same ones complaining about poor public services.

I haven't read the whole thread but if the government think people can just suddenly get a job because they have been off work with ill health(esp mental health) for years they are living in la la land.

20 years ago I had bad mental health issues myself. I was helped to get a job via a work programme designed to help people with disabilities. There were organisations like remploy who employed disabled people. Now in my 40s I work full time and although i still suffer anxiety ive learnt how to cope and enjoy my job.

Anyone with health issues trying to get a job these days stands little chance with no help available, being turned down from jobs due to gaps cause of illness. Who eants to employ someone with health issues? When they can get someone without. Bring back help and support and absolutely get people back onto work. I hated being out of work due to my issues and feel much better mentally now I can support myself.

@ismu Yes I agree, the graduate suffered as did others. DH didn't do the job, as once the company found out who the headhunter suggested of course they could not admit he had the knowledge they needed. We actually suggested a previous colleague of ours for the contract, which thankfully they did accept.

As a business owner I do try to look at the situations from both employer and employee perspectives, but it is difficult sometimes to understand some senior/middle management view when they seem to do everything to not accept experience.

@enchantedsquirrelwood Yes I agree in work training seems very poor in many places these days, a click though, multiple choice after watching a few short online video's isn't training in my view.

I haven't read the whole thread but if the government think people can just suddenly get a job because they have been off work with ill health(esp mental health) for years they are living in la la land.

All the government needs to do is convince a swathe of voters that it's possible so they can continue the narrative that we'd all be bathing in champagne if it wasn't for those pesky layabouts.

I also think we have a "demand" problem in the UK with academic skills. There are so many graduates in non-graduate roles. Additionally, many of these non-graduate roles actually ask for a degree education as an essential characteristic (for example low-paid admin roles in universities).

This problem doesn't exist everywhere in the world: my friend moved here with her husband from the USA straight after graduation. She was shocked she couldn't get a job with her science degree from a top 10 university in the USA. Whereas all the friends she graduated with quickly secured jobs in the USA. Let alone the much lower pay for an equivalent role in the UK.

It feels like the demand just isn't here in the UK for certain roles. Why isn't the government attracting, or stimulating the creation of businesses that are, high-paying employers?

Yes totally. I just have to listen to my coworkers going on about lazy people not working, getting loads in benefits. If there was more support out there and people were chosing not to work I'd probably think the same but it's not easy if you've been out of work long term because noone wants to employ you.

I love the way they make it sound so easy.

My SIL is early fifties and has been applying for jobs since December - she's lovely. Easy to get on with, chatty, can do attitude. Decent CV. Happy to work in a shop/pub/cleaning/driving. Hasn't been offered anything! I sometimes wonder if agencies advertise fake jobs!

They certainly used to.

There’s a lot of talk on forums about “ghost jobs”

Yep.

I had to leave my full time job because I couldn't physically do it any more because of long covid. I've had zero help from my gp - its anxiety according to them and all they did was gave me meds which did absolutely nothing but made some of my symptoms worse (and I was on them for about six months!)

I worked in IT and Telecoms at a reasonable level.

I was made redundant 4 years ago (58) the DWP lady and the Seetec plus guy both told me i had no chance of getting similar paid work or even a semi skilled job.

Of the men and women at a similar level, no one has found FT work in the same industry, we ve either taken early retirement or PT roles in other sectors.

Most of the jobs i see advertised are highly skilled in defence or power, NHS, caring, delivery jobs.

The few Telecoms jobs are self employed, low wage, must have own car/van.... useless to me.

I used my redundancy money to by a small place in SW France, Couldn't be happier, even with Brexit i can spend 4 or 5 months of the year there and the Govt handily, allowed me and the 100s of 1000s of others, to get works pensions 12 years before state age retirement.

Its all on them.

The loss of the older worker to economy appears to be a UK specific issue.

The ease at which we can get our pensions is a huge incentive to pack up work or go PT for many people.

I'd have work if i couldn't have got my pension early.

I met a dutch couple recently, they cannot access work pensions early, certainly not at 55.

Oh blimey
I can't fathom that either!

I've wondered about this, a friend told me when she was looking for work after having her kids that it felt like so many job listings were fake. One part time admin job she applied for she didn't even get an interview and the email she got from the company said they had had over 300 applicants, then a month or so later they readvertised the job saying that they had not been able to find a suitable candidate during the initial recruitment, really? Out of 300 people not one of them was suitable for a part time admin job? Seems fishy to me.

I’d love to know if other countries have similar levels of ageism to us.
If people are effectively kicked out of the workplace due to age before they can access their pensions that’s a bit of a problem.

I hope you've gone to a different GP, there's a big divide between the non-believers and the ones who actually help.

because they're stuck in the British Empire past but even worse because they can't manage to build a railway line.

they don't seem to understand they should be pushing science and tech, instead they're choosing a tech is evil narrative.

probably because they're bitter that tech companies choose Ireland over the UK because of corp tax and EU access. Ireland has made itself very appealing to a lot of big businesses.

This seems like a great idea, I think its been shown that the more unequal society becomes the less invested we all feel in it.

Society isn't unequal because of wages / earnings though (as the Labour proposal you like suggests). 99.9% of the people on PAYE are all just as fucked as each other.

Society is becoming more unequal because of assets (and lack of).

It feels especially awful now after covid. The amount of money we "injected" into the economy is something like £16,000 for every citizen. Where is it? Where did it go? Did you get yours? I didn't get a penny. Neither did my two children. Well I tell a lie, we got a box of rapid tests and one PCR between the three of us. Let's call it a massively inflated £300. So where is the other £47,700? What happened to it?

I don't see any massive difference between myself earning £45k as a single parent and the top dog at my company earning £75kish. He maybe has a nicer car and goes on holiday for 2 weeks instead of 1 but he's hardly the enemy. And when I was on £30k I got help with top-ups to the point I was actually £76 a month WORSE OFF after being promoted. Yet according to half of Scotland I'm "the rich" who needs to be taxed at 52% of my next overtime shift.

The way I see it we're all arguing over scraps here. Whoever has that money - and somebody does - is laughing at ALL of us.

It feels especially awful now after covid. The amount of money we "injected" into the economy is something like £16,000 for every citizen. Where is it?

Ask Michelle Mone (amongst others)

@WaitTheNoo I see your point, its like housing round here even if you double the money you spend say from 150K to 300K its often a slightly bigger house or it might be in a slightly better area but there isn't that much difference really.

I don't think these folk in cushioned government ivory towers consider that, even if there is no illness in play, by the time people get to 50+ many are simply tired out after 30-odd years of working full time. No, they don't want to drag themselves out of bed at 6am on a freezing January morning to go into an uncomfortable office full of nonsensical corporate brain-wrecking babble and toxic managers - because they've done that for 10,000 days already and they can't take any more of it.

To be fair, even with a sympathetic GP there is absolutely nothing you can do for long Covid.

I’ve had to give up employed work because I can’t stand up for long enough to get to work. I’m self employed but if I couldn’t do that, I’d be another unemployed statistic too. I’ve gone from doing 5k runs weekly to being largely housebound with a walking stick.

As long as they don't claim any benefits and earn enough to keep themselves I don't see it's a problem or anyone else's business.

I agree with everything in your post except for the IR35 comment. Working inside IR35 means you actually pay more tax than a regular employee but get no employment rights at all - that’s immoral and I don’t blame anyone for not signing up to it.