to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

[molokoco]

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

I think they need to tackle the real problems which are to stop making 50 plus.year old women feel invisible and then they might feel more valued in work and in society. Ageism pervades the workplace and when women get to 55 they think fuckit. You treat me like I'm invisible Im off!

Completely agree with you on that one, although when I've chatted about labour shortages to various trades people who've come to the house, they say that they can't get young people into their line of work because it can be physically hard and dirty and they don't want to do it. So they might give it a go but then leave soon after. That's anecdotal of course but I suspect there's something in that.

Its reached a tipping point where working hard does not get you any further forward in life. It seemed to be easier for my parents generation - get an education, get a job, rent house and save for mortgage, buy house, get promotion, buy bigger house, sell bigger house, and retire at 60 feeling like you achieved something. Despite most people on MN claiming to earn £125k most wages are tiny. Most people I know earn around £22k and they are degree educated. Those educated, grown adults with 20 years work under their belt still can't afford rent, work 40+ hours and still have to claim universal credit and wait for shitty council housing like they never bothered trying. Young people see the struggle we've been through and rightly think 'f*ck that!'.

I feel so sorry for young people and worried for my own kids’ future. When dp and I graduated in 2002, we earned about £35k between us and could afford to rent a flat in London, had season tickets for public transport, could comfortably pay the bills and had money spare for holidays, clothes shopping, going out etc. Life was great and we didn’t worry about affording things. That’s how it should be for young people starting out. We are earning what should be good wages now, more than twice what we started on (not in London any more thankfully) but are still struggling - I’m sick of buying secondhand clothes, having the heating on for 2 hours a day only, ridiculously overpriced rainy UK holidays, the house we bought needing maintenance we haven’t the time or money to do. Some days I literally cry from exhaustion (I have a chronic illness and am struggling on at work with no support) and things just feel like a real grind. The impact of the current unsustainable cost of living really shouldn’t be underestimated.

taxguru
Yes, fully agree. Ever since sec mods/grammars were banned (in most areas), we've suffered the "one size fits all" comp system which has always prioritised "academic" teaching which has caused a lot of the behaviour and disruption in our schools today. There needs to be more emphasis on trades and manual skills in schools, from around aged 13/4 as an alternative "path" for the kids who are never going to excel at foreign languages, sciences, Shakespeare, algebra & trigonometry etc. Then that needs to feed into far more options for post 16 via technical colleges etc. Blair's aim for 50% going to University was insane and is a result of the obsession with academic teaching at comps. We need to change the schools and entire education system to give far better options for those who are more suited to a manual/technical/trade working life rather than a "pen to paper" working life.

Completely agree with the principle here but I would never endorse a return to the old grammar school system which divided children at age 11 and funnelled them into an inflexible binary system of 'academic' or 'non academic'. It was a ridiculous system; I know many people of my generation who 'failed' the 11 plus and then ended up being unable to sit O and A levels despite being really bright.

What we need is a flexible education system which doesn't fix people on a path at a crazy young age but which gives them the opportunity to play to their strengths and follow a more vocational./ trade route if they genuinely are not suited to a purely academic curriculum.

And stop encouraging so many young people into university. I've worked with uni students. It's shocking how many of them aren't engaged, the quality of their work is pretty mediocre and they're getting a rubbish deal anyway with a few hours online lectures a week - then they come out with a 2:1 but no discernible skills, a pile of debt and the expectation they should have a graduate job. It's scandalous and exploitative. University should only be for professions like law, medicine, teaching or for the absolute brightest who will genuinely benefit from studying at the highest level. Other young people need respected alternatives which play to their strengths.

Interesting bbc fact check on this

Unemployment: Who are the millions of Britons not working? www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52660591

Completely agree. Why do we work if not to afford a decent standard of living?

So where would design courses sit in your university list? Britain has the best courses in art and design in the world, and exports talented graduates throughout the world.

Or English, or History. Why can’t people study for the pleasure of studying?

Or is this degree snobbery?

Of course people can study for the pleasure of studying!

If you look at my post you'll see I wrote about students who are funnelled into uni, racking up huge debt, who aren't engaged with the course, don't meet their deadlines or produce very mediocre work, and are being sold a dud.

I do too. What it makes me think is that a lot of these young people don't have much experience of doing physically demanding jobs.

Really, physical labour in itself is not so horrible, especially in a skilled trade. It can be a lot better than sitting in an office all day, especially for some, and physical work, when it's skilled, can be extremely satisfying.

But we know there is an obesity epidemic among young people. I think there are many who aren't very physically fit, so they are going to struggle right off the bat. Many also have little or no experience of skilled work with their hands, they are used to video games where it's easy to do things well. They get the satisfaction without the time and care that normally goes into developing manual skills.

Lots of kids don't do much in the way of physically demanding cores either, especially if they live in a town or city.

So maybe they like the idea of building something, or keeping a farm, or whatever, but when it comes to the graft, they are very quickly out of breath and demoralized.

Personally I have always supported the notion of state provided education up to the highest level an individual can achieve. Bearing in mind it's not for everyone.

Also, it used to be that to get any degree you needed to be able to research, document and engage with arguments and propositions at a level that meant you were able to take on the more complex tasks in business. It's why I've worked with a load of people my age who did History or French or Art and yet are quite familiar with having to write and review complex projects and plans.

My DM often said you go to school to learn to learn. And I stand by that. Education should be about giving you the tools to then further your own knowledge with critical analysis.

However, because it's now a commodity, it's just about how many 5-star reviews you can get on tripadvisor for the next years intake. A system that isn't going to change anytime soon.

But we know there is an obesity epidemic among young people. I think there are many who aren't very physically fit, so they are going to struggle right off the bat. Many also have little or no experience of skilled work with their hands, they are used to video games where it's easy to do things well. They get the satisfaction without the time and care that normally goes into developing manual skills.

I've had a couple of jobs where I've worked with young people and I've not noticed this. I did notice that a concerning number of them lacked basic life skills that I would have classed as common sense such as being able to mop a floor, cook a basic meal from scratch, or operate a washing machine. Not all of them but enough of them that some of the older staff started to refuse to work alone with new starters if they were young.

Same with DH. He was made redundant, but has been able to keep working as a contractor since. It’s easier if you are already established.

DS has many older friends who are really struggling. People are treated like total shit.

It’s hard when you’re starting on a career

It’s probably sector dependent too

How old are your parents? We are 57 & 60 and cannot retire until 67!

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen I posted that many of my early retired friends do substantial amounts of voluntary work and appreciated your post about the amount of help given to the community. I cook as a volunteer at a food project for people on low incomes and the homeless. All of the volunteers bar one are all retired. Lots of retired teachers, civil servants, a retired GP. Basically people with decent enough pensions that have no need to claim any benefits. Plus sometimes the voluntary work is of a level that is specialist, a retired corporate lawyer mate gives legal advice to a major charity for free. If they paid for that it would cost thousands. He has saved them a huge amount of money.

The rot set in with Tony Blair-I distinctly remember the drive for as many kids as possible to go to Uni, it was talked about endlessly as if there were no other course in life. This resulted in young people going as the alternative was considered ‘ less than’. My own children were teenagers at this point.
By chance I met a 20yr old from Germany who announced to me with great pride how she worked in an artisan bakers and her knowledge and enthusiasm was evident. I couldn’t help but think none of the kids I knew would think this was a worthwhile career, more like something to be sneered at.
My partner and I both work in construction and have seen the huge drop off of people coming into the industry. It’s hard work but rewarding and well paid. I believe something like 25% of construction workers will be retiring in the next 5 yrs!
What this country needs urgently is a massive investment in social housing, coupled with an outstanding apprenticeship scheme to train as many people as possible in all the trades we are so short of like bricklayers, plumbers, carpenters, plasterers etc etc. These skills will stay with you for life.

There is a social contract and this is currently being broken due to corporate greed. Everyone should expect to be able to afford a minimum standard of living when working full time.

Ie Room and board for single people, a small house for a family with 2 working adults. They should be able to comfortably feed and heat themselves. I wouldn’t expect to be able to afford holidays or new furniture, but second hand items and days out on the bus with a picnic should be affordable.

For those living in expensive housing areas, the public sector should provide adequate housing so we have the staff for essential services.

The social contract is broken in many areas of the U.K.

What it makes me think is that a lot of these young people don't have much experience of doing physically demanding jobs

I have experience of hiring young people recently and I hope my experience isn't common because it was dire. 20 year old unable to get to work ontime as felt tired, it turned out they gamed until late into the night. They did no exercise and used food takeaway apps for every food delivery, literally breakfast, lunch & dinner, didn't take transport as used Ubers.

Perhaps Covid allowed habits to be ingrained which are now proving hard to break. I know graduates who do Teams calls from home wearing PJs and sling a jumper over the top. Getting up & dressed for work is too much effort which pre Covid couldn't have happened.

However I think employers need to consider more flexible working for parents and older workers. The demands of work have increased alongside life's pressures, such as reliable childcare, medical appointments etc so people give up work rather than try to continue. When I entered the workforce I recall older workers & parents who had genuine part time jobs (not fulltime jobs squeezed into part time) which seem less common now.

How are people managing financially if they are over 55 and not working?? I don't think there are that many great DB pensions around. Are these the fortunate people who has cheap housing and inheritances??

There is a social contract and this is currently being broken due to corporate greed.

Mrs Thatcher: There is no such thing as society.

Also the narrative of the past few years has been a creeping push from the government Tories that the state isn't actually responsible for anything. At all. Granted they rob you of a lot of tax, and impose a fucktonne of laws for you to obey. But that doesn't actually mean they are responsible for anything.

To veer off thread, but on topic,. it's that social contract that has disarmed us, in the promise that we will be protected. Now I would be the last person to advocate a free for all firearm fest. However, in a country where innocent people have to watch other innocent people being disembowelled by out of control dogs with no means to help because they have surrendered their rights .... well that can only go on for so long. And as usual it's the weak and vulnerable that suffer most.

Shutting down parts of society during Covid hasn’t helped the social contract

Push people that much and they start to find ways to opt out

Surely a lot of young people are in education and are not available for work, not full time anyway. The person speaking on R4 this morning said 16-24 year olds and they are supposed to be in education until 18.

A lot of the over 50s have retired early for health reasons and can just about manage. Or can manage very well.

Other people could work if they could get a mental health referral and treatment, a hip operation, a knee operation, a hysterectomy etc etc - lots of people are waiting for treatment for painful conditions which prevent them from working for months and years.

Plus this government have allowed the health of the nation to get into a sorry state generally with cuts to public services and massive increases in poverty.

Also reason there are so many job vacancies is because we have a government of incompetent fuckwits who allowed us to leave a big trading block next door to us with free movement of workers and everyone quite rightly went to work somewhere more welcoming. With better weather.

A lot of these articles in newspapers are just super rich shite- wah, why won't these older workers come and do my shite jobs for minimum wage any more?

Wah, why won't people work in an office 5 days a week and support my corporate office block investments?

Nothing wrong with that, but....people taking a history degree should have it made clear upfront it's not a route to a high paid graduate job. A friend of mine did history and was quite angry to find it was not easy to get a job compared to e.g friends who did engineering.

I have worked for top City law firms and they were always taking on trainees who had studied History. It's not a barrier to getting a good job!

Most people don't walk straight into their dream job from university.

If she had the intelligence to do a degree surely she had the intelligence to research the employability of graduates by subject before she started? “Oh, nobody told me” is a pretty poor excuse. There are plenty of humanities graduates in highly paid professions.