to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

[molokoco]

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

The reduction is social mobility is not just due to the choices people make.

Sometimes they don't have those choices any more.

@vivainsomnia you talked about an internship. Often these days they are unpaid and young people can only afford to do them if they have a lot of parental support.

If you don't live in London and don't know anyone in London how can you do an unpaid internship in London? Only by doing it on top of a full time or part time job.

Also, frankly, sometimes those choices look very unattractive. I graduated late 90s. Lots of my friends went to big 4/finance. They worked 12 hour days and overnighters regularly. The sleeping bag under the desk was a thing,

I'm disabled. I can't work those hours. But frankly neither could they after a year or so and lots took drugs to cope. Many got qualified/got their experience and then got the fuck out.

The quid pro quo for working those hours was that they paid you lots of money,

Now, my DD graduates this year. Graduate salaries have barely moved from the late 90s, and they don't buy what they used to. Fewer and fewer people are prepared to do those hours and work in those environments if they are not going to pay you lots of money.

You can get just as good money and a much nicer life elsewhere.

As a young person. It's so frustrating. Wages have stagnated, housing is expensive the lack of social spaces where you don't have to spend money in order to just have somewhere to socialise it's frustrating and because housing is poor we don't have homes to socialise in, the housing crisis has a massive impact on your development. Poor housing and I have been subjected racism and sexual violence in house shares and it's impacted my productivity at work. The housing crisis cost the economy and ways from poor health to poor mental health to it sucking up all our income so we can't spend on commodities and services.

I don't think this country will economically prosper until we fix the housing crisis.

Life is very depressing, and I say that as a young person

you talked about an internship. Often these days they are unpaid and young people can only afford to do them if they have a lot of parental support
Yet many internships are paid. We can always focus and point on what isn't possible, and forget about all what is available and possible.

When my kids come up with 'buts', I'll try to channel them towards possible options for them. What good does sticking to what can't be done and hiding behind it to young people but demoralising them?

A contextual grade offer is usually one grade lower. It’s hardly levelling the playing field.

Many young people write off uni due to the debt they’d have to take on.
And student accommodation is expensive.

There also aren’t enough apprenticeships at level 3/4 for those that want one. I’d say it’s actually more difficult than getting into uni because if how competitive it is.

Also, frankly, sometimes those choices look very unattractive. I graduated late 90s. Lots of my friends went to big 4/finance. They worked 12 hour days and overnighters regularly. The sleeping bag under the desk was a thing
Again, it's a choice. It was unattractive to them, they were willing to do with with the belief that this would lead them to money and more freedom in the future.

There is no formula for the perfect balance. Many generation X are now burned out by their mid 50s and desperately looking out yet face having to work until they are 67 and know they won't manage it.

Milleniums maybe have it better by taking every day life more flexibly to last longer.

The bottom line is very few can have it all. We make choices, some pay, some don't. Some choices allow for more control over change over time than others.

Many young people write off uni due to the debt they’d have to take on
And that might be a clever choice. My DD was adamant he wasn't going to Uni because of debts. she managed to save £15k working during college. She changed her mind at the last minute and decided to go. She has often said that it was a big mistake.

She's now working for a great company getting in via a graduate job and earning well. Yes she is paying her debts but she can now see how much Uni helped her grow and prepared her for work. She's glad she's gone now. Some of her friends opted to work FT right away or do apprenticeships. Some are also doing great and have progressed, some are still in similar level jobs than after leaving school. Some are now SAHMs.

So many posts are so negative, focussed on how everything is so terrible and everything is against them. What hope young people with parents have to believe that even if times are harder, they are still plenty of young people who do manage and that's not just the privileged.

It's going to be the same focus with the next Government too. As many other pps have said, it's a complex problem that needs complex solutions. What we do know is that forcing people into work as a strategy doesn't work.

Well done to your Dd. But curious as to how she saved £15k during college? I presume that was over 2 years. It’s a lot to save in that timescale.

Well said.

Well done to your Dd. But curious as to how she saved £15k during college? I presume that was over 2 years. It’s a lot to save in that timescale
Yes, worked for 2 + years, as many hours as she could get. Ultimately, we didn't ask for anything so could put it all in savings. Didn't have much of a social life at all! It all dwindle paying towards Uni which broke her heart at the time but now see that it was worth it.

I think too many parents expect miracles from CAMHS. They can't do half of what parents hope. They can offer counselling, but cold smelling only works with those who are fully engage and rarely offer the quick fix they hope. It's like obesity, it can be tackled with kids and the earlier the better, but only a radical change in their environment and life style can make the real change, and parents are really the ones to support their children to do that.

I've always just expected regular, prompt appointments.

Unfortunately, I have always been let down. Even now, DD2 has been on the waiting list for grief counseling from CAHMS following the sudden death of her dad. He died over 18 months ago. We are still waiting.

Unfortunately, I have always been let down. Even now, DD2 has been on the waiting list for grief counseling from CAHMS following the sudden death of her dad. He died over 18 months ago. We are still waiting
Terrible, I'm really sorry. CAMHS is overwhelmed with young people depressed and anxious over matters that otherwise shouldn't make them feel so hopeless building a very long waiting list for those who do need specialist care.

Yes I wondered if that was without outgoings. She was lucky to have that support.

I see parents who, once their dc turn 16, say they have to pay keep plus food. And that means they cannot continue their education due to the hours heys have to work. I see their dc faces and it is sad they cannot be supported for just two more years then they’d be on their way to more choices.

I see parents who, once their dc turn 16, say they have to pay keep plus food
But these are very shit parents since they continue to claim all children related benefits even if their kids work PT whilst going to college.

These kids can leave home and claim benefits in their own right whilst continuing to study so they are options for those with parents who are all in it for themselves only.

Those supported living options aren’t great. Again I see those young people too. It’s too much for a lot of them.

These parents want their dc to leave education and work full time and contribute. Some apprenticeship wages are ridiculously low too and Tesco or McDonald’s pay more.

Because even if not claiming benefits, they're still benefitting from the taxpayer in terms of the NHS, police, roads, subsidised public transport, security, environment, etc etc. Ultimately they will also be claiming state pension, free prescriptions, free bus passes, etc.

@MotherOfRatios

I don't think this country will economically prosper until we fix the housing crisis.

I have to agree. The housing crisis is THE number 1 issue facing the country. We need to have control over rental costs and a massive initiative not only to build more new homes (mostly smaller sizes, i.e. flats, starter homes, etc), and to regenerate/refurbish/convert underused/derelict properties such as empty flats above High Street shops, empty shopping centres/arcades, derelict industrial sites, etc., not to mention forcing councils to buy and renovate empty/derelict residential properties. Encouraging Persimmon etc to build huge new estates isn't the answer!!

The issue with building on top of shops and commercial properties is lenders don't always like to lend on these types of properties. It's risky to them. I'm currently trying to get on the property ladder and the cheapest places tend to be above shops but lenders don't like doing it.

The housing crisis really harms renters but it also harms people with mortgages because house prices are so high that paying a mortgage is also high not as high as rent but it just means that we all have less disposable income

These parents want their dc to leave education and work full time and contribute. Some apprenticeship wages are ridiculously low too and Tesco or McDonald’s pay more
Ok, but that's not what explains the increase in young adults not working. The above situation is a small minority so why focus on this case scenario to discuss this matter.

It's always the same. We talk about a growing problem trying to understand why and posters justify it by using exceptional circumstances, just to make a point.

I was made redundant at 53, it took me 18 months to get another full time job (that I wanted). I did a bit of temping and Call Centre work during that time too it was just awful.

They may not admit it, but companies aren’t always keen on employing older people - I was competing with people half my age. My decades of experience meant nothing.

Luckily the company I finally got a job with was owned by a 60 year old woman - she actively encouraged employing all ages.

I think the bigger issue is that a lot of commercial properties (especially High Street shops) are owned by pension schemes, and pension schemes currently aren't allowed to invest in residential property, so if, say, a pension scheme owns a property which Specsavers operate from on the ground floor, they aren't allowed to rent out the first and second floors as residential flats! We need a change in the law to allow that, or changes in tax/property laws to discourage pension schemes from owning commercial property!

We’re not going to fix the housing crisis until we deal with the fact that partly as a result of decades of disproportionate investment, an ever increasing proportion of jobs are concentrated in London and the southeast. There are houses elsewhere in the country but unfortunately not so many jobs and a shortage of public transport to get to those that there are.
We can build more and more homes in the south east until there is not an inch of green space left but as long as there is a lack of economic opportunity elsewhere people will keep moving there.

It's not just the SE where there's shortage of property and shortage of well paid jobs anymore. There are other places who suffer the same, maybe not as extreme as London.

But, yes, we do need to tackle a few decades of centralisation into London, i.e. closure of regional offices of national firms like banks, insurance firms, accountants, solicitors, etc etc., which happened at the same time the regions lost their manufacturing industries with offshoring - a double whammy.

But like I say, even in the regions, there are places of high demand, low supply and therefore unaffordable high prices, such as York, where even one bedroom flats (typical naff flat above a shop) cost £900+ per month which simply isn't affordable on "normal" wages. And even at £900 per month, you have to virtually sell a kidney to get one as the demand is so high the estate agents limit viewings and even getting a viewing is hard!

Totally agree it is ridiculous how London and SE England centric our country is.