Subsidised childcare va care home fees

[MrBanana]

Discussing the introduction of 15 free hours for two year olds with friends (which I think is flawed but that’s not the point of this post). Friend 1 said childcare has to be made free. I disagree, there’s no political appetite for that. People of retirement age feel quite strongly that parents should be responsible for their own children. They’re the ones who vote in the largest numbers.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t agree that we somehow have it easier. We are told we have to be responsible for our own children. But we can’t now survive on one salary alone. Childcare is now more expensive and inadequately funded. Everyone I know with a two year old has seen their nursery bill increase in anticipation of the “free hours”
to compensate for it.

But then it struck me that these people are the same people who have “worked all their life” and don’t feel they should have to pay their care home fees and if they do, complain about it being unfair. Healthcare is still free to them, whereas we are finding it increasingly difficult to get a dentist for example.

It just struck me how hypocritical the whole argument is - we are supposed to be responsible for our children, by virtue of them being our children, whilst simultaneously working. But the current cohort of retirement age are complaining about, and want to avoid, being financially responsible for themselves! Most won’t have been paying taxes whilst receiving the benefits we’re now paying for childcare/dentistry etc.

Im not sure that’s the best structured argument but I hope I've made my point well enough to be understood.

I guess so, and some of that she paid. We thought she'd be there for a matter of months. What it does illustrate is the amazing job of caring the staff do in care homes.

Does that appeal to you?

Do we pay no tax then?

But I also believe that people shouldn’t be able to ring fence their own wealth at the expense of the rest of the population.

What makes you think they can? We fully anticipate funding our care home fees should we need that level of care. We even call our savings The Care Home Fund.

Childcare is expensive, but care homes are eye-wateringly expensive.

Yes and the generation raising young families now will pay for both, have insecure housing, reduced quality and access to healthcare…

Was that meant for me 🫢

You think those of us who are older haven’t paid for both? The quality of healthcare is no worse now than it was 40 or 50 years ago and access is the same. The difference is that a lot of us are paying for elective healthcare rather than deteriorate in long queues. If your child was sick I guarantee the care would be timely and excellent.

Yes, for things like defence, roads, police - unless you want vigilante-style law enforcement and tollgates on private roads. Things like research into drugs would need to be thought through if you don't want to contribute to funding cures being found that only benefit other people. But if you want everyone to be self-sufficient at every stage of life it will mean dismantling the society we are used to. You may be rich enough to know you self-support regardless of what life throws at you (in which case, why begrudge helping others?) but the vast majority of people are net beneficiaries at various points (eg during childrearing) and net contributors at others (eg between children growing up and later old age).

Just to be clear - you think the NHS has maintained its efficacy?

@ShyMaryEllen How would that work though? You think people would stay & work & pay in some cases the current high taxes for the police. Do we pay CR, road tax, VAT, stamp duty too? That will really help the demographics 😆

For the vast majority of today's pensioners, university education (or even staying at school past 15/16) was a minority, and largely privileged, pursuit.

This. My dad joined the military aged 15 because his other choices were join the family business (horse trading and occasionally horse stealing) or get a job in a factory. My mum left school at 16 and went to work for the civil service. They coped when she got married but when she had me, no more job. Her brothers all went down the pit at 15. Higher education wasn't an option. In fact I was the first person in my wider family to go to University.

My dad is dead but my mum is still a tax payer.

My inlaws both have degrees and are still tax payers in their 80s. In fact I'd put money on the fact that my fil pays more tax than most posters on this thread. He still does consultancy work aged 82.

Conversely, the tax payer paid for both my degrees but I'm not currently a tax payer.

I don't think the difference between the UK nations helps. We're in Scotland. All 3 to 4 year olds get 1140 hours of free childcare per year regardless of circumstances (if you want it). Doesn't matter what you earn or whether you both work.

As for people wanting to ring fence, I think it's human nature. My dad had come so far from his upbringing that leaving an inheritance for me and his grandchildren was important to him. The thing is, the more you have, the easier it is to hide from the tax man. So trying to prevent all families benefiting from generational wealth will I think be futile. It also doesn't address the fact that they don't have to be dead for you to benefit. My inlaws hand out cash like sweeties to their kids because their needs are minimal and their monthly income is high. House deposits, cars, holidays...

"Goforitagainandagain · Today 11:58

Only about 15% end up in a care home, though the amount of fretting on these threads you would think it was a lot more"

The thing is though many many more SHOULD be in care homes. A very large proportion of elderly people refuse and insist on staying in their own home, however inappropriate that might be. They then have a fall or something and end up stuck in hospital "bed blocking" because they can't be released home without the care they need. So it's not just a problem for the elderly people themselves. It's a problem for anyone who might need a hospital bed and can't get one because they're all full.

What makes you think retired people haven't paid tax? Or that many of them don't continue to pay tax after retirement?

I think it has when people are really sick, yes. The real problem is waiting lists for non emergency conditions. I had to wait six months for an outpatient appointment to investigate chest pain but the care I’m getting now has been exemplary. I’m a critical old woman but I can’t fault it.

Many retired people are paying tax on their pensions,can assure you that we have definitely paid and still are paying our way.
OP you mentioned your concerns about younger generations housing problems.
Take that argument to the wealthy people who own 2 homes and charge for holiday rentals etc !!!

In other words: if I really want something, it's a necessity; if you really want something, you need to save up and pay for it.

It’s not quite that simple though, is it?

If you’re not able to access healthcare until you’re “sick enough” you’re going to find that when you do access it, people are typically sicker - requiring more prolonged care and that they have been like that for a longer time. During which they might not have been able to continue working.

That in itself can push people into poverty. Then the impact that has on mental health.

Healthwise their outcomes won’t be so good when they are seen.

Longer wait times for treatment are pretty self explanatory- wasting your life suffering, potentially out of work sounds pretty miserable.

That’s not what the OP said. Try to engage with the argument.

Society as a whole needs most people to replace themselves so it fits my definition of a necessity.. personal necessity not so much but a society that doesn't have "enough" children will eventually fail - as has been said a fair few times by a number of posters

Let's start to sort out some issues by putting 2p on National Insurance.

These ‘elderly’ people who were working in the 50s will be mostly dead by now. My generation of mothers worked, many in professional roles, contributing to the tax system.

Oh well. I was told my retirement age was 65 -it’s not and it’s climbing. Some things need to be sucked up

Who is this elusive generation of women, made up mostly of professional women?

How did they evade the stats?

I think childcare should be fully tax deductible for the first child. I don't think it is the worst in Europe in terms of quality. Not by a long way. Children are well looked after, ratios are good, but that costs.

I also think the care/nursing elements of care home fees should be covered. I don't see why cancer should be free, but Parkinsons isn't, Obviously you need to pay for your food and other consumables when in a care home, but that would be a couple of hundred £ a week rather than £1000 plus.

We should and could do both. But people have to accept that if you want decent public services you have to pay tax. I think many people still think good public services come out of nowhere.

Well, quite. What the heck do they think they are doing by reducing it?

Who is this elusive generation of women, made up mostly of professional women?

Not mostly made up of professional women but your parents’ generation was the first to offer genuinely equal opportunities to women. For the first time women were strongly represented in the workplace - doctors, dentists, scientists, senior civil servants, lawyers. There are many of us posting here. We weren’t always old ladies.