Toilet training before school

[jackass232]

I saw a piece on the news last night about how there's been a big rise in the number of children starting school not fully toilet trained. I think the figures were something like 13% of kids in any reception class are not fully trained and that teachers are on average spending 2.5 hours per day dealing with toileting accidents and issues.

Obviously this is quite shocking (I expected to see a MN post about it actually, sorry if I missed one) but I can sympathise as my ds started reception with issues surrounding pooing - mostly holding onto it, becoming constipated and having leaks. I remember always packing spare pants for him and I know the TA had to help him change a lot. This wasn't anything to do with laziness on my part. He was just hard to toilet train and continued with these issues for quite some years. The school was always lovey about it but I felt very embarrassed and upset on behalf of my son.

I feel the general narrative behind this story is that parents just can't be arsed to toilet train their kids and are happily sending them in and letting teachers deal with them. But that's not always the case. I know it's a big drain on schools but what's the answer? And why has there been such a rise?

Unless I take a week off work solely to nappy train there’s no chance for me to get it done.

Well there's your answer. It's what we did.

We did it on a long bank holiday and a nursery that understood that we were starting that week end.

But I guess to me it’s no different to having to take time off for illness and injections. Isn’t it just expected that you have to take some time off to do it? I would rather that time be spent on a holiday but ce la vie I guess.

I worry the time will come when zero teaching happens in schools ☹️.

Therein lies the problem.

it was particularly difficult to fit it in with my second because I used my AL for school holidays but it still had to be done. I would have preferred a week in the sun!

Such a good point, I’d be really curious about this too.

Mine were at daycare/nursery 5 days a week so yeah absolutely I’d say ‘it’s not solely my responsibility’. Doesn’t mean at all that I wasn’t willing to train them and wouldn’t keep a long weekend free to start! But I’d expect nursery to also work with me and that they’d have to agree DC was ready and be supportive of whatever method we were using. I’d also say it’s partly DH’s responsibility, because he’s an equal parent and most importantly that the DC has to be a willing participant in the process and after the first few days where you take them regularly, they have to take over the responsibility for their own toileting.

Well, this is immaterial as schools saying that in England would be breaking the law.

If this continues then more teachers will leave and fewer will train and who can blame them. I just don't think it's unacceptable to expect a teacher to change a child's nappy.

It's quite simple that schools ate not allowed to discriminate
It doesn't matter what you think or what happens in other countries its the LAW.

Do schools have to have safeguarding rules around this kind of thing the way that, for example, nurseries do? I assume you can't just let any class teacher go into a closed room with a small child and remove their clothing and nappies - but I also assume it's not very dignified to leave the door open when they're that age. Logistically, it must be complicated.

Get nursery on board, make sure you go with a method they’re ok with (probably not Oh Crap because it’s bare bum and then no undies for ages which nurseries don’t like for obvious reasons), plan absolutely nothing next bank holiday weekend and give it your best shot.

I had my first in the US and my vacation allowance was 10 days! I didn’t even take the travel days off when going on holiday (laptop + in flight wifi on the plane) so I definitely wasn’t losing a precious day to potty training!!

Perhaps the law needs reviewing

Unless I take a week off work solely to nappy train there’s no chance for me to get it done. I have zero intention of leaving it until school age for my child’s sake, but it’s actually hard to just fit it in!!
To play devil's advocate here, what do you think all the other families with working parents are doing though?

It's not like everyone else has huge amounts of time to dedicate a week off work solely to potty training. People still potty train their children though, usually by discussing it with the childcare provider and taking a joined up approach at childcare and home.

It was reviewed to stop.nurserys and schools discriminating against children with disabilities and or development delay
And late toilet training is development delay.

Yes, schools will have an intimate care policy. The difficulty comes when there is one teacher for the class and no additional adult, so the teacher is trying to change the nappy (usually in the cubicle with the door open) whilst trying to teach the rest of the class. It is extremely difficult. Ideally, the more independent they get, you are encouraging them to do as much as possible themselves-eg wiping, stepping out of the dirty pull up etc and you can hand them wipes and things through the door. It gets very difficult when they are so soiled everywhere (particularly due to high dosages of movicol which can be like liquidy clay and difficult to clean off) and schools are supposed not to request parents come in and take them home for a shower/bath.

Those who are focused on children with SEN, I would suggest that parents who aren’t potty training before children start school are doing those children with SEN a disservice too, just as they are NT children.

Any time taken away from teaching by providing personal care is time taken from every child - it is not limited to only NT children. The TA’s will be the first lumped with the job of cleaning children up. So those who should be there to support SEN children or those that should really be in special schools but for who places aren’t available.

The impact is not limited to NT children. Whatever provision is extended to your children whether NT or SEN is valuable and in short supply.

Im not suggesting that children with a genuine disability might be delayed - but that they are impacted as much, if not more by the lazy parenting of the capable children.

Yes I understand but not always the case judging by the reposes on here.

How do other countries in EU stop admittance

Do you not think.a typical.child would want to.get. out-of nappies ASAP especially at school.
I really can't imagine a typical reception aged child would willingly wear nappies, kids are very cruel and notice children the same age were wearing nappies

I didn’t toilet train my younger two. With my middle child I just left nappies off as much as possible and if I went to the toilet I’d sit her on the toilet as well, most of the time she didn’t go and then one day she did and that was pretty much it. She was dry from that day. We went out that afternoon and she chose new underwear. My youngest, only a year younger, pretty much learned from his sister. Never had a potty . They were both around 3.

My eldest we had to train as hes severely autistic. He had/has very limited understanding and is non verbal and we kept getting told it would be impossible. We spent a week at home and did pretty much nothing else and succeeded. He was 3 1/2 .

I had three younger sibs and could change nappies by the time I was 10. I think toddlers learned to connect wetting and pooing with the weight they were carting about between their legs, and so were ready sooner; and mums certainly were! The work of nappies - rinsing, soaking, washing, pegging out, getting them in, airing them - lasted for a short a time as possible.

The physical feedback from a modern comfortable disposable nappy is nothing like that from an old-school.terry square, which obviously made toddlers uncomfortable.

Sorry I meant to say that I don't think it's Acceptable to expect a teacher to change a child's nappy. This is not what their job is.

Anecdotal but this sums up my experience working in a big office for a decade. I’ve met overheard many parents advising each other to let nursery/school sort out things like toileting, tying shoelaces and reading, and recommending nurseries that have workers who are renowned for being good at things that are basically, if I’m honest; parenting.

I don’t understand why people keep seeking sympathy for stressed overworked parents. This stuff is neglect and my sympathy is with the kids, rather than coddling the people who chose to bring them into the world.

I don't think children that age are very cruel actually. I had a boy in my Reception class who used to soil himself every day and none of the other children were cruel to him. They'd just say 'Mrs xxx he's pooed' alerting me to it. This was about 15 years ago. When I started teaching in the 80s it was unheard of unless the child was ill as they weren't allowed to start school nursery if they weren't toilet trained. It changed in the late 90s I think. I've been retired for 10 years so the situation might well have got worse but I had 3 in nappies in my last class. I was lucky to have had a TA but nearly all her time was taken with toileting when she should have been working with groups.

I've looked at the question staff were asked about toilet training and i realise it isnt really about nappies. Its about what percent of children have frequent rather than occassional accidents. There is a bit of discretion on what people consider frequent id have thought.

Some children don’t care. I’ve given examples above which I know you refuse to believe. Two of the children are several years down the line now and fine in school.

Mine were very young in school year - eldest two had issues - school was very unsympathetic even in school preschool so just 3 year old.

Eldest has an poo accident summer term of reception - TA tried to publicly shame me - basically scolded me in front of other parents waiting for pick up - had a fit at me bring pushchair with baby in as refused to leave other kids outside- it was a mess but I was one dealing with it she stood over us going on and on couldn't expect staff to deal with this - then it emerged from kids and actual teacher my child had been asking to go to toilet good 20 minutes and student teacher in charge and said no even snapping at her told her to wait till end of school - she was 4 wasn't 5 till end of summer holidays.

Next child was like yours OP -despite smell school never dealt with it.

Youngest was easy to train - also avoided all the other SEN issues in primary that cropped up with older two in that school denied till they couldn't or downplayed.

Interesting spoke to Dmum - and while we were trained Db and I who got diagnosed with SEN as adults had nearly as many accidents as mine - we were slightly older before full time school started and cloth nappies did probably help but also we or parent helpers/adults just sorted it out - wasn't a big deal and layout meant we could access change of clothes and toilets as clock room and toilets together DC first school they weren't even in reception.