To think raising school absenteeism fines won’t help much.

[Boomer55]

Fines for parents taking children out of school without permission will rise across England from September.
The minimum fine will increase from £60 to £80 per parent as part of a government drive to return attendance to pre-pandemic levels.
One school told BBC News one out of every three of its pupils absent without permission had been on a family holiday during term time.
A head teachers' union said fines were needed to avoid "chaos" in schools.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-68420275

All things are regulated, yes. Holiday accommodation in, say, Spain, is regulated by bodies that do not include the UK government. So again, tell us what you want to do, what is possible and what it would achieve. All we've had so far is vibes.

The crucial difference between schools in England and holiday accommodation outside the UK is that we're actually in charge of schools in England. We can run them without the current fining system, like we did until a few years back. It's within our control. Creating a system where families don't have access to much cheaper holidays in term time, however, is not.

The problem you have when making your argument isn't business, it's the fact that the UK isn't in charge of the world.

As long as schools are giving pupils time off for football matches on TV the whole minutes matter bullcrap is an utter joke. Only when it suits the system.

Lastly, taking children out of school in term time will only be like bunking off work when DC are paid a wage to be at school and accrue employment rights for being there too

Think about that for a moment, not every responsibility is about money. If your child bunks off they get detention. If you are complicit/take them out for hols you get fined. If you keep them off and it’s actual neglect there are consequences.

Why can’t it be suggested on here that maybe we could help to avoid fines by using law to regulate business without such outrage ? Bonkers

I said regulate where we can. Nobody should just give up because the UK law can’t reach every part of the universe.

Why can’t it be suggested on here that maybe we could help to avoid fines by using law to regulate business without such outrage?

How would English laws be able to restrict the prices that eg a villa owner in Majorca, set for renting their property?

Ok, then tell us what we can do and how it would be beneficial. You still haven't.

It's not about giving up, it's about explaining why this is worth attempting in the first place. We must do something and this is something is a piss poor justification for any policy. It's a particularly bad one when it would still leave us with much cheaper holidays in term time plus a fine system that doesn't work and frequently makes things worse.

Because your claims are, well, bonkers.

The one about school being the same as work in this respect is particularly hatstand. If DC are to have the same responsibilities as employees, they'd also need the same benefits and rights. Which aren't all financial, as it happens. A situation where there is a contract is not a like a situation where there isn't.

@Overtheatlantic

Ok

There's comes a point when people need to know that education is important and if that means raising the fines for lack of attendance,

So be it,

Perhaps that 🤔 give parents the incentive to address their issues of why their child is like that in the first place,

Whether they attend school or not
It's the law they are provided with some kind of education wherever that be,

Obviously school system isn't perfect never has been,

but it's much better its improved nowadays than used to be more awareness around learning difficulties ect

I think lockdowns made some Parents or more aware of the importance of educating their child and how difficulties of it too. Understanding of teachers work...

That’s an ultra right wing stance: so business is above regulation; workers must obey rules, students can do what they like.; Government bodies can’t levy sanctions or fines or impose rules.

You think it's ultra right wing to point out that businesses outside UK jurisdiction won't have to follow UK regulation? Mmmkay. Bit insulting to anyone on the left, centre or soft right to think only the far right have noticed that the UK is not in fact in charge of the planet.

Says a lot, though, that you still haven't told us what policy you want to implement and what you think it would achieve. All we've had so far is vibes.

My post isn’t about that - it’s not about that element of your argument at all in any respect. Read the words.

Kids should be in school and parents should be responsible enough to keep them there. Teachers and institutions fulfil their responsibilities (strikes notwithstanding) the parents also have responsibilities to their child, the state, society. Just keep your child in school, that place that does have regulations.

Education is important, and we treat it with great importance year round. DDs attendance is as good as we can possibly make it through each year. It's usually up n the 90%s.

But equally our whole family benefits from a week off a year together.

In a choice between DD missing the last week of the school year or us never having a family holiday (in the UK - none of us have passports to confiscate!) i'm choosing the holiday.

The school considers enrichment days (Sports day (they go home early after mostly sitting in the field), whole days buggering about dressed as vikings or umpaloompas) and school trips (a week in term time in Dorset) valid parts of the DCs development. Fair enough. We pay up and we engage - providing DD with costumes or whatever.

In my eyes our single week away together is also valid as part of my kids happiness, development and wellbeing.

Yes, we get the threatening letters. If we got fined it wouldn't change anything.

I can't address the issue that "makes my child like that", he has autism with avoidance disorder and sensory issues. I struggle to get him in school every day, some days he's late and guess what that gets marked as an unauthorised absence. His attendance currently sits at 74% but...of that 26% at least 20% is days where I've got him in eventually.
There are things the school could do to help him (not changing PE days every half term would be a good start), but atm the whole burden falls on me and there are days where I admit I just can't fight him anymore.
I've had neighbours call the police, because of the screaming that goes on, I've been covered in bruises, yes it is that bad. And he's not a small child, he's strong, I can't just pick him up and carry him put the door.

It should always be looked at in context of the child and family. Does the child have high attendance and child and family engaged with school and learning? Is it a one off or a regular occurance? Can it be easily avoided - such as is it a family wedding or funeral where the parent doesn't have a choice when it, or a week at Butlins/disney/Costa del ... where the parebts can choose.
I got really annoyed, we haven't taken our girls out during termtime in 4 years of them being in school, but my husband cousin brought their wedding forward into termtime as his father terminally ill, and it was abroad so we took our girls out for 3 days of school. I was honest and gave a full explanation and received a letter from the headteacher saying was unacceptable considering their 'next steps' (? Fine). I politely replied to say this is probably the last time will see his uncle and we would accept the whatever consequences they saw fit.

But some schools are great - our terminally ill friend took her girls to Disney to make memories and the school just said go for it.

But equally I know of families who take their children out 3 weeks every year for a cheap package holiday - they are the ones the government should be targeting, not those who are making final precious memories with terminally ill family members.

It's per parent per child isn't it? So 80 x 4 if you have 2 kids

Still significantly cheaper then the hiked cost of a school holiday holiday. I don't know why they think this will make any difference

@firef1y many parents know exactly the reasons their child isn't in school and they are begging for help.
Help that is underfunded and hard to access - or often simply doesn't exist.
They are fighting for the child to get help and support and being handed a fricking 80 quid fine is not going to help them one tiny bit.
Sorry that was for @cerisepanther73 .

Your post literally begins with your claim that people are saying business is above regulation, and you go on to try and set that up as a comparison. If your post was only about your belief that people shouldn't take their DC out of school, you wouldn't have mentioned business regulation at all.

We really need to move away from the language of "the schools" etc when getting angry about issues that are government policy. Teachers and schools have been bearing the brunt of the anger around this issue for years. They didn't make the rules and never have. Headteacher discretion is overall a myth. If your school's overall attendance is low, then you are answerable to the local authority and Ofsted for that. As a HT, if you are being scrutinised highly- which is not always consistent between local authorities and schools - then you have no option but to refer for fines.

Also, absolutely the issue is WHY children aren't in school. An overloaded, too-hard curriculum, punitive Ofsted system and burnt out teachers as well as a massive teacher shortage and funding crisis as well as a cost-saving move towards inclusion at all costs regardless of the needs of the child or the impact on other children are part of the problem. Provision for SEN children is woeful now and TAs have been cut to the bone. It was never about the needs of the child- it's always been about money. As proven by the latest move to cut EHCPs by 20%. A target the government had paid a big whack to one of their mates again to oversee. The total collapse of support services and utterly inadequate provision for mental health support and timely assessment for SEN. It's unacceptable. This government have utterly destroyed education over the past 14 years and they would rather blame parents and children than admit they've got it all so wrong.

Exactly this. They're yarning on about fines in the hope that people will be stupid enough not to notice all the systemic issues that have happened on their watch.

Absentism is a very complex issue, and reasons so so varied. A proper assessment should be made, but there is no system or staff to do this. So raising fine won't help.

As for holidays in term-time, I'd multiply the fine by a minimum of 10. (coat - out).

Good luck with managing to get fine x 10 off a family with no spare cash 🙄

Where's the money going to come from to pay for all the admin involved there?

But your reply was about an utterly different aspect of the topic of business.

You'd end up with more people fighting them and also not paying once they'd lost, both of which are expensive. The fining system at the moment benefits from the fact that people have substantial incentives to factor it in and accept it. You may know that the court system is creaking at the moment. It's not immediately obvious where the capacity to deal with this would come from.

It would also be magnificently unpopular. The current system obviously causes widespread resentment too, but £80 per child per holiday isn't enough to make most people change their vote on that basis. It's not a good idea politically to escalate an unpopular but relatively minor policy.