To be shocked by this woman’s assumption

[Reluctantcareprovider]

I go to a regular monthly hobby group. One women who attends is in a wheelchair -though she has some limited mobility she can use sticks for

a few times myself or others have helped push her wheelchair to bathroom at breaks. Wheeled in and left her to it. Popped back and knocked on door when she was ready to come out

no problems - happy to help. Most meeting are just 2 hours so she doesn’t need lol, it is the more irregular whole day meetings that I’ve pushed her chair.

at latest meeting she now has electric self drive chair, but she asked for help with “the bathroom again”. Sure, no issues , nothing else explained . I was a bit surprised given she has new chair but though oh well, it’s a tight squeeze into disabled loo.

got into bathroom, about to leave her, and then had her tell me , no I couldn’t leave her and that I now needed to help her onto the toilet and started to explain how to lift her skirt, pull down pants and remove an incontinence pad form around her bottom- I was stunned. I said I wasn’t prepared for that, didn’t know what to do and was very uncomfortable with it. She said it was simple, just needed “a bit of help” and proceeded to tell me what to do.

in the dithering (in fairness on my part) she then had an “accident” on the floor over her undies .

I was left to remove wet undies, pick them up annd bag them and used pads up from pool of urine on floor , and then to help get her into new clean undies and pad.

I also have a very bad back myself which means bending and lifting is painful. And she’s not a small woman

I was feeling sick (smell of urine) and felt so very uncomfortable. I have never ever done this for anyone and even when my own dad was having accidents in care home (dementia) I’d leave to staff who knew how to hold him, lift him safely and change him without further accidents.

when I said after I was not comfortable with what was happening, she dismissed it really, said “I thought you knew and agreed “! Of course I didn’t know her condition had deteriorated so she couldn’t manage toileting herself. She never once told me that when she asked if I could help her. I had no reason to suppose at all she needed more than help with doors etc.

I am appalled she assumed I would carry out such an intimate carer role for her. I am not unreasonably sqeemish but this really turned my stomach and embarrassed me seeing her completely naked waste down.

Her husband drops her off. He left her. Didn’t come back at all during day to help. Nor did she come with another carer . Seems like just because I’ve helped her a couple of times with wheeling her about in old chair , that she ambused me into doing this way more intimate and personal care for her.

I was too shocked and guilty to just walk away and leave her. Clearly she needed the loo. She was aware I wasn’t happy and embarrassed as I told her, but she made no apology in assuming I’d do this for her.

AIBU to say she was totally unreasonable to dump (sorry no pun intended) on me like this, without being explicit about her needs . Surely she should have spoken to someone in group BEFORE attending a whole day session. when her needs changed to agree how they would be managed, or got her husband to come back at lunchtime.

there are other people in group who have known her for years, and much closer- one lady who runs the group has known her for 15 years or more. I’ve only been attending group for 2 years. I barely ever talk to her as her interests in this hobby are slightly different than mine and I go with a different group of friends. i just helped in past because I was sitting near her and the door on that occasion. She seems to have now latched on to me

AIBU to also raise it with chairwomen - say that this lady needs to discuss a better approach to her care if she continues to attend all day events? I know it’s personal but she said “I thought you knew” to me which leads me to think others may know and I am a complete mug.

im actually quite angry she just assumed I would be her carer for this intimate care, without my explicit consent.

AIBU to feel this way? AIBU to say no in future? AIBU to raise it with the chairwomen and say the lady needs to come with willing carers to perform these tasks?

Thanks.
The "wheelchair" bit is the pertinent thing, though, I can't see why it's any better to suggest that it's being used by choice?
I'll use it, though.

I am sorry you were put in this position. It is good that this lady is integrated into this group, but it is important that she has the right care and that no other members of the group are put at risk (e.g. lifting). You do need to speak to whoever is in charge and say that proper care during these meetings is essential.

She sounds really manipulative. If that was a true accident you'd expect her to be mortified and apologetic, with some concern for you, rather than dismissive and blaming of you. I'd be really wary of her and wouldn't get into a situation where I was alone with her again.

Good grief. YANBU.

Yanbu. My friends PA drops her off and helps her use the bathroom then comes again half way through the day then collects her. My friends never expected me to help her use the toilet. That's very personal.

This explains it.

www.freewheelintravel.org/please-stop-saying-wheelchair-bound/

As someone who needs this kind of help myself, no of course you’re not unreasonable! She should have made arrangements given that it was a foreseeable situation. If she had suddenly got sick, I could understand her asking for help since she’d have no choice, but I’d be distraught to have to do so and doing all I could to minimise the impact on anyone kind enough to help.

Wow...

As a disabled person (ahem, person with a disability!!)...

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I've had people tell me they're worried about, either nicely or indeed, not so fucking nicely. I discussed this with a couple of other people recently (also people with disabilities) and they've had the same experiences I've had, so I am not alone here.

Am I meant to not say it, is it not PC to say that some peoples behaviour and indeed some peoples prejudices, mean the rest of us get fewer opportunities, excluded from things, held at arms length and avoided.

This fear people have is the reason I sat on my arse on the fucking pavement next to a broken wheelchair for HOURS one day, asking people for help and being blanked. Because no one wanted to help, they feared I'd ask of them more than they could give ... I needed a fucking tyre iron or a plain screwdriver, but before I could explain that, people assumed I needed to be picked up off the street... and so they walked on by.

So yeah I think I've every right to be angry when I hear about someone abusing (yep, abusing!) other people by forcing them to do something that is very much outside their boundaries and against their will, such as the OP describes.

@FlamingoQueen

That's a really good insightful points you have made, about this demanding woman,
could also make up something 🤔 that's not true about whoever unspecting person who is toileting her needs at a given time in this class,
you be susprised the bullshit certain people who wouldn't expect it from,
can come out with,
you have to protect yourself from this potentially,
Also obviously it's a potentially a real problematic safeguarding guarding issue potential waiting to happen.

Hey @WiddlinDiddlin , apologies. I completely misread your post yesterday. Now you have explained I get where you are coming from.

Also, sorry you had that experience. My husband is a wheelchair user. People can be ignorant, though many seem willing to offer help if needed. Younger people especially.

Having previously been involved in running a group specifically for people with disabilities, one of the things we had to do was have a care, medical needs and evacuation plan written down for each individual in the group as part of our public liability insurance and requirements of hiring the venue from the councils youth services team (a sports hall in a youth centre used daytime during school terms only).

Part of that plan included details of assistance needed to meet basic care needs (eg escort a blind person to the bathroom, ensure they know where the toilet roll is and then wait outside while they use the facilities, assist them to the basin to wash hands/hand them paper towels and then back to the room; escort person in wheelchair to disabled toilet and make sure they have all they need to transfer onto toilet etc) Any assessment that highlighted more than such a level of assistance meant the person then needed to bring a 1-2-1 carer with them to the group or would not be able to stay. The same applies if we were attending competitions.

I would speak to the organisers of the activity group and explain what happened and how you were ambushed into helping this lady and that you’re unwilling to be put into this position again nor do you think others should be either and that the club as a body needs to make an assessment and put plans on place to avoid a repeat of the same happening to any other member - and, if that means she has to attend with a carer, so be it!

I think your situation is very different.
we do keep emergency contact numbers handy and securely . But absolutely have no rights, or desire, to take info on people’s needs. That’d be massive intrusion and certainly breach of data protection in out case.

yep we’re an older demographic in main, lots of us will know about others medical conditions cos we tend to have our own huddles of friends who we share stuff with, as you do!

we don’t provide a service as such. We use a non council hall which has insurance just for issue the hall building or equipment causes. Our own insurance doesn’t have public liability as everyone is there at own risk, as you would be at home. I know there’s a small amount but massive restrictions around how it would pay out. It would not pay out if I’d done my back in “ voluntarily” helping this women, or even if she’d fallen in loo.

thats why, very early in this email, a responder raising public liability risks of what happened was so key- I’d not thought about it. Neither me or the women I was “ helping” had cover .

this point was made by me to chair in my email. She’s responded accordingly, and is now dealing with it.

but yes, insurance for liability, or lack of, is crucial here.

I’m sorry you’re experiencing this…god it’s sad isn’t it

but you’re right…I will be much more wary about offering wheelchair users help now, and that makes me feel shit too.

I would feel exactly the same @Reluctantcareprovider though no ones likely to ask me (fortunately?!)

@IClaudine thankyou for the apology!

Sorry if my post came across as our group was something official - it was just a small bowling club for people with disabilities such as stroke survivors, visually impaired people and some with neurodiverse disabilities but no physical disability. We had public liability insurance for those participating and it covered the equipment we owned as a club and used regularly as part of the game.

It was the council that required us to have medical and evacuation plans; the forms literally said something along the lines of “Stan is visually impaired; he will need guiding to the bathroom and showing into the cubicle; he can manage independently in there and then will need assistance back to the sport hall” “Peter has had a stroke and is a full time wheelchair user; he needs 1-2-1 assistance with personal care so will have his own carer with him, there will be no input required from volunteers” Details were kept in a file held by the club secretary only and information was brief and concise - not full of diagnoses or medication etc) In the case of the lady in your OP the info would have been something along the lines of “Mary needs the assistance of 1 person when using the bathroom so, if attending a full day event, will need to bring someone with her to support her needs. For a normal weekly club attendance, she should not need any support” (all names and comments above are fictitious)

We were not trained in moving and handling or providing personal care so were not allowed to help someone up if they fell or needed physical assistance with toileting. If we had helped someone like the lady and hurt ourselves, we too wouldn’t have been covered by the insurance as that was not the purpose of having it, so I get where you’re coming from.

I hope the lady at your club doesn’t put someone in that position again in future as it’s very awkward to be expected to help when hoodwinked into how much assistance is needed and when it’s not really appropriate.