To be shocked by this woman’s assumption

[Reluctantcareprovider]

I go to a regular monthly hobby group. One women who attends is in a wheelchair -though she has some limited mobility she can use sticks for

a few times myself or others have helped push her wheelchair to bathroom at breaks. Wheeled in and left her to it. Popped back and knocked on door when she was ready to come out

no problems - happy to help. Most meeting are just 2 hours so she doesn’t need lol, it is the more irregular whole day meetings that I’ve pushed her chair.

at latest meeting she now has electric self drive chair, but she asked for help with “the bathroom again”. Sure, no issues , nothing else explained . I was a bit surprised given she has new chair but though oh well, it’s a tight squeeze into disabled loo.

got into bathroom, about to leave her, and then had her tell me , no I couldn’t leave her and that I now needed to help her onto the toilet and started to explain how to lift her skirt, pull down pants and remove an incontinence pad form around her bottom- I was stunned. I said I wasn’t prepared for that, didn’t know what to do and was very uncomfortable with it. She said it was simple, just needed “a bit of help” and proceeded to tell me what to do.

in the dithering (in fairness on my part) she then had an “accident” on the floor over her undies .

I was left to remove wet undies, pick them up annd bag them and used pads up from pool of urine on floor , and then to help get her into new clean undies and pad.

I also have a very bad back myself which means bending and lifting is painful. And she’s not a small woman

I was feeling sick (smell of urine) and felt so very uncomfortable. I have never ever done this for anyone and even when my own dad was having accidents in care home (dementia) I’d leave to staff who knew how to hold him, lift him safely and change him without further accidents.

when I said after I was not comfortable with what was happening, she dismissed it really, said “I thought you knew and agreed “! Of course I didn’t know her condition had deteriorated so she couldn’t manage toileting herself. She never once told me that when she asked if I could help her. I had no reason to suppose at all she needed more than help with doors etc.

I am appalled she assumed I would carry out such an intimate carer role for her. I am not unreasonably sqeemish but this really turned my stomach and embarrassed me seeing her completely naked waste down.

Her husband drops her off. He left her. Didn’t come back at all during day to help. Nor did she come with another carer . Seems like just because I’ve helped her a couple of times with wheeling her about in old chair , that she ambused me into doing this way more intimate and personal care for her.

I was too shocked and guilty to just walk away and leave her. Clearly she needed the loo. She was aware I wasn’t happy and embarrassed as I told her, but she made no apology in assuming I’d do this for her.

AIBU to say she was totally unreasonable to dump (sorry no pun intended) on me like this, without being explicit about her needs . Surely she should have spoken to someone in group BEFORE attending a whole day session. when her needs changed to agree how they would be managed, or got her husband to come back at lunchtime.

there are other people in group who have known her for years, and much closer- one lady who runs the group has known her for 15 years or more. I’ve only been attending group for 2 years. I barely ever talk to her as her interests in this hobby are slightly different than mine and I go with a different group of friends. i just helped in past because I was sitting near her and the door on that occasion. She seems to have now latched on to me

AIBU to also raise it with chairwomen - say that this lady needs to discuss a better approach to her care if she continues to attend all day events? I know it’s personal but she said “I thought you knew” to me which leads me to think others may know and I am a complete mug.

im actually quite angry she just assumed I would be her carer for this intimate care, without my explicit consent.

AIBU to feel this way? AIBU to say no in future? AIBU to raise it with the chairwomen and say the lady needs to come with willing carers to perform these tasks?

You're a far better person than I would have been. I'd have walked out at the very first hint she expected more than just opening the doors for her. That's a horrific situation to have had to handle.

I'm not sure about emailing the Chairperson though - I think it would be better to make it definitely clear you won't be helping in the future and tell her she needs to sort some appropriate care for her needs.

Despite knowing this person for years, the Chairperson might not realize the current situation at all and I think a private chat with her might work out better.

If this woman wanted to keep her care needs completely private she should have kept them private and not pressured OP into performing intimate care. Not that Im advocating telling anyone else, but the chairperson does need to know so she can deal with the situation appropriately. There are potential legal implications on the hobby group and given her behaviour this woman may pressure others into doing intimate care like she did OP.

Excuse you, but where does it say this lady is overweight? Yes she was bvvvvvu to expect this of OP but your assumption that she's overweight is appalling

I have situations where I have to change and do intimate care for vulnerable adults. I absolutely do not ever ever ever do it without appropriate PPE. You should have been wearing gloves at the absolute bare minimum for both your protection, and I’m beyond shocked that she expected you to do this. I would have said flat out no.

This assumption that the nearest woman will
provide care is really sexist and annoying.

I help my elderly disabled mum out of the bath on the rare occasions she has a bath instead of a shower. And even though she can walk and not in a wheelchair, it’s extremely difficult as she has arthritis in a lot of her joints. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable providing intimate care for someone I don’t know well and who I was not prepared to assist.

In her original post, the OP wrote

I also have a very bad back myself which means bending and lifting is painful. And she’s not a small woman

which, as everyone knows, including you, is a polite way of saying the woman is very overweight.

Hey OP, echoing others. You are not unreasonable to not want to do this again. It was inappropriate of her to ask. The only possibility is that she had been told that everyone had been informed she will need help.

I would not have helped. I am disabled myself but don’t use a chair. I have chronic pain and have had all kinds of abdominal surgery, which has left me with an 12 inch incision. I had to pay for a specific procedure from a top surgeon not performed as standard on the nhs and heavy lifting is an absolute no. I don’t tell people any of this because it is my business. I can appear ‘normal’ for short periods of time despite living most of my life in bed. She would have no idea of any of this and I expect she is also unaware of your back problems. You could be waiting for hip / knee surgery, have orthostatic issues or one of those people, who vomit easily etc. Her assumption was outrageous. I would definitely be emailing the organiser.

Yanbu at all. She totally took advantage and used her condition to guilt you into something you told her you were not comfortable with.

Same as this!
YANBU. It could happen again to someone else, hopefully the chair can have a discreet word.
Must've been a complete shock.

Yanbu, it's really quite shocking that she would expect that

YANBU. My own mother who is an actual nurse was not allowed to lift my grandmother when she was chair-bound (and she wouldn't have dreamed of it, knowing the risks). You need two trained people or to be trained with and have a hoist. Just echoing what's others have said. It leaves you open to accusations of inappropriate behaviour. It's physically unsafe for you both. No PPE. I'm sorry for the lady but more enraged for you at the absolute audacity. Email it to the group leader so you have it in writing. You're a group participant, not an untrained unpaid carer and you are well within your rights to want nothing to do with other people's toileting needs.

I do toileting with some of my students at school who are in wheelchairs and we always wear gloves, we use a hoist as we are not allowed to lift over 15kg and we always have to have two of us there.

So even though toileting is something I am comfortable doing I would not have done it without gloves or needing to lift a weight that is bad for my back.

I completely understand.

I like to think I would have said something and left but in reality I'm not sure I could have

@Reluctantcareprovider

She is literally taking the piss expecting you to be OK and up for doing this toileting task for her needs ect,

She should and needs to have a proper designated Carer to come to her hobby sessions with her in future,

It's not your problem or issue for you or for a matter of fact,
other people who attend these hobby sessions to worry or deal with,

She shouldn't expect women in the hobby groups to do favours like this for her...

If it's up to them if they are willing and able to do it too...

YANBU at all. She took advantage of your kindness, most likely knowing you would feel too awkward to back out.

Report it before she corners some other unsuspecting person. So out of order.

I have no idea how mumsnetters get themselves into these peculiar situations

Frankly nor do I!
but bare in mind, MN is one of few places to share peculiar situations like this and ask AIBU….its why people come on and post…and sort of the point of it all. so not exactly across section of normal non peculiar life 🤷🏼‍♀️🤦‍♀️

If you were in a school you wouldn’t be able to help a child without intimate care training and even then there would be 2 of you there. When you email the chair, I would say that you are putting yourself at risk, both physically and in a safeguarding capacity. She could say anything and you have no witness to back it up. This is not your responsibility!

AIBU to also raise it with chairwomen - say that this lady needs to discuss a better approach to her care if she continues to attend all day events?

Not unreasonable to feel uncomfortable with the ambush but unless this woman has some learning difficulties or communication problems then surely the conversation is with her?

How unfortunate that this severely disabled woman didn't have her PA with her.

Tell the person running the group your concerns. Nobody should have to help a stranger in this way and certainly unprepared. I wouldn't give this kind of care in a workplace without PPE and training.

This lady is obviously becoming vulnerable and needing more help so she will start needing to look for carers, even if it's only temporarily- if her condition is worse due to a short term illness/injury. I think most people try to carry on as long as they can but it sounds like this lady has reached a tipping point.

I think I made it clear enough to her that I was not happy that she’d not ask again- my AIBU on that point was a genuine validation type ask to understand if I was being a sensitive uncaring wuss to find the whole thing unacceptable! And was IBU to make the point clearly I was embarrassed and shocked?

The issue is with stopping her putting someone else in that situation too if she comes again without assistance? What are the members supposed to do with a women who is in such needs but thinks she is not unreasonable to not bring a carer? We’re all terribly “ nice” ladies to each other, and muck in to be helpful and being of a generally more mature age are aware this could be us in future. If it’s not me and not committee member then she could just pick on someone else? Maybe she had already and I was first mug who didn’t ask specifically what was involved or didn’t know her needs had changed!

Nope Nope Nope, I'm a nurse and would happily help anyone to the toilet but not without gloves and an assessment of mobility. If I don't know how she mobilises I'm not doing it without 2 trained people present...have been in far too many situations where people tell me they are fine on their feet until the crucial point of standing and it becomes very clear they are in fact not safe to mobilise and I have to take their entire weight to twist on my back before they fall.

I provided personal care to my DH'a Grandmother ad hoc if carers didn't show but when mobility deteriorated and she needed hoisted I refused without a second person.

Please either speak to her directly or their chairperson to sort out and make it clear that it was entirely inappropriate and you will not be providing this level of care again and nor should she expect that from any other participants.

YANBU. I've done care work and I'd have blenched at this - too many safeguarding issues and no PPE, plus the potential harm to yourself trying to do a two person job. I feel sorry for her, as it must be so limiting, but that's not your problem to sort.
Yes, give the chairwoman a heads up that this is happening. No-one else should be put in that position.