Do you allow your 17-year-old to…

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Have completely unrestricted and unsupervised phone access (so not even having to leave phone downstairs at nighttime)

Work part-time if still at school or college.

Learn to drive (either self-funded from wages or with parental help)

Travel in a car driven by a 17-year-old

Stay overnight at the home of a friend you do not know

Use public transport alone at night

Regulate their own sleep, even if this means getting out of bed at 3pm on a weekend

Stay home alone overnight or for multiple days

Be out and about without you know really knowing exactly where they are at any given moment

Even if that were true, it doesn't mean that people would call a 25 year old dating a 21 year old a creep.

@LindaHamilton

16 & 21 is massively different to 21 & 25 though. Surely you must know this?

Gender irrelevant.

I saw the darts player thread, but in my 10 years on MN I have never seen anyone calling a 25 year old dating a 21 year old a creep.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3458406-DS-messaging-ex-teacher?flipped=1&page=2

plenty of posters condoned it ffs. In reverse gender nobody would have.

I have seen it, men too in later 20s being slammed for dating 21yos yet it's fine for 15 yos to share the same bed...

Yes to all.

DS is confident using buses, trains, the tube with his mates. He loves travelling.

Haven’t left him home alone yet, we haven’t been away without him, not that we have any trips abroad happening any time soon.

We do have find my iPhone switched on, although he’s pretty good letting me know whereabouts he is and what time he’s expected home, it’s useful if he ever did lose his phone AND if we needed to know where he was.

yes to all except home alone, but if we needed to we’d trust him to be sensible (we hope)!

This it true, however it can seem that posters with strong views on one thread are silent on others where the situation is the other way round. It can feel like posters saying “21 year old is still a kid” dominate a thread, then different “16 year olds are adults” posters dominate others.

I know there’s no MN hive mind

There is a “feel” and “culture” of a site that allows and encourages views though

Most people are discussing power imbalances though with age gap relationships. Two 15 year olds are at the same level mentally.

Gender plays a massive part in thread responses on mn. Very relevant.

My point is that 15 year olds are children and people saying it's fine them sharing a bed is madness as they are adults is madness when the same posters will then say 21 year olds are still kids. You can't have it both ways.

Nobody says that though! I've never seen anyone say a 15 year old is an adult and a 21 year old is a kid. I've seen people discussing emotinal maturity in age gap relationships but nobody says that a 21 year old is a kid.

Be out and about without you know really knowing exactly where they are at any given moment.

This is weird! DD’s 16 and apart from the stuff about the car (DD and all her friends ride bikes and are loathed to take public transport because it costs money) she’s does pretty much all on your list. Why would I object to her exercising independence?

DD’s going to see Metallica in Madrid in the summer (she’ll be 17) with four friends.

Independence is learnt.

No to several of your points. A 17 year old is not yet mature, regardless what they think!

I've seen plenty of threads where parents are bashed for having curfews for their 15 yo or not letting drink or have boyfriends/gfs stay as ''15 is basically an adult/not a kid.'' And the consensus being that you can't enforce rules to them at that age which I think is complete nonsense.

If you are unable to enforce rules to your 15 year old and not have them walk all over you then there is something seriously wrong.

If something bad happened to your 16/17 year old when ''exercising independence'' there would be a thread on mn condemning your parenting...

I agree with this but at what point to they have those freedoms? Not on the eve of their 17th birthday but then it all changes the following day? You can't restrict an adult after all.

It's far better that they develop these skills when they're still at home and have parents around to help them than reach 18 and be ill equipped.

My daughter will be 18 and 3 months when she leaves home for university. If I don't allow her to develop her independence now, when would it happen? When she's 200 miles away and on her own?

<whispers> MN is not that important...

Letting a 17 yo go abroad with friends is nuts. I think that's important that 17 is still a kid...

But no one says that 21 year olds are still kids.

Yes, they are young and inexperienced adults. Yes, they can be vulnerable to exploitation by older and more worldly wise people.

That doesn't make them kids.

You're making a massive oversimplification and talking nonsense

yes on mn I have seen 21 yos still classed as kids.

It depends on the kid. How well informed the parents are. How well its been organised.

Loads of my friends travelled before university. Some did Camp America and others backpacked.

My eldest child wouldn't have been able to manage it my youngest would.

And, again, by the time they're 18, they're free to do what they want as they're adults. But if they haven't learnt to do these things under adult guidance, how are they supposed to do it?

Yes though he always lets us know if he is going to be late home especially if he is driving. He works, studies and paid for his own lessons, car and insurance.

Well I think you might be missing the subtly of nuance in the context then.

but that whole 'depends on the kid' chestnut is used when older adults date teens on mn is ripped apart when the adults say it to justify it.

Then your 17 yo and eery 17yo is very much ''still an immature kid'' etc.

17 year olds are still kids period, you can't change it to suit yourself. A 17 yo going with friends to a foreign country with no adult supervision is madness.