School detention for forgetting a ruler?

[Wizardo]

Just interested - how many people have secondary school aged kids whose school gives a detention for forgetting basic equipment like a ruler?

I wonder does it really teach kids to be organised. Surely it just means disorganised people get lots of detentions? And feeds anxiety?

My schooling in the 90s felt pretty strict but this seems borderline bonkers. My dd currently “can’t borrow a school library book for the rest of the year” as she’s so anxious about getting a detention because she handed her last book in two weeks late. So now we are visiting our local library instead to provide her with books to read! I have obviously told her to just get the detention over and done with but she is adamant and determined to avoid it.

vote Yabu for No detention given
and Yanbu for Detention given.

Haha Frippenos - I remember similar with a confiscated trainer once !

Sideorder, are you saying that ALL the students that don't bring pens in are disorganised? What about ND, poverty, abuse or any number of the things pp have raised on the thread so far?

20% of children are being abused (ONS), 15% are ND (NHS), 23% are in absolutely poverty (statista), 20% have a mental health disorder (NHS)

Obviously there will be overlap between these statistics, its likely, for example, that some of the children in absolutely poverty have mental health disorders.

Normally I am quite supportive of teachers and think they do a tough job in challenging conditions. But seeing some of the responses from posters who say they are teachers on this thread I understand why my sisters abuse and my abuse was never reported or dealt with

Because we were "disorganised", "naughty" and "disruptive", rather than abused, neurodiverse and in my case disabled.

Not all students. But usually the same students. And most are not neurodivergent they just don't see the point when school will give them one.

dimllaisshebiaith

i trained in 1997 - I distinctly remember in my first “practise“ school the deputy head joking one day when I took the y11 class with my uni observer was in , it was bound to go well as “ naughty girl “ was off this week and hadn’t been seen for a week or so . I asked where she was - he didn’t bat an eyelid and laughed “ probably down the docks earning “ ☹️ I remember at the time being shocked but just accepting of the situation .”

Luckily “ safeguarding training is 1000% more robust these days . I was in two days a week in the last six months I easily did a safe guarding referral of any kind once a week. In the past in the noughties maybe once every six months. Some systems have changed for the better . It was something like 500 odd referrals a year in our partly leafy suburban school last we were quoted by the safe guarding lead at training day. Again perhaps why there’s no time to track a 3 strikes and you’re out on equipment detention system . We see what is happening in our societies children .

It is quite some leap to say that teachers getting sick and tired of spending their own money to provide stationery to students is linked to any lack of care regarding potential abuse!

I absolutely took my safeguarding role seriously. I also feel it is not unreasonable to have sympathy with teachers who face the choice of having lessons constantly disrupted due lack of basic equipment or shelling out yet again for stationery. If you have not been party to this in real life you really cannot understand the issue. It causes disruption and is simply an act of defiance to turn up without the equipment needed - no one is so deprived they cannot get themselves a pen. As I mentioned before no student every forgets their phone.

Some days I taught 180 pupils in one day. So many of them had no pen, or claimed to have no pen. It does not take long for a box of 200 pens to disappear. Many of them did have a pen somewhere in their bag but they could not be bothered to look. For many students it is yet another way to disrupt the lesson.

There was literally not a penny in my budget to spare for stationery so it all had to be paid for by me. Pens, pencils, rubbers, glue, colouring pencils, all of it.

So glad I am out of this now.

no one is so deprived they cannot get themselves a pen.

Sure if you ignore the 23% of children in absolute poverty

So much privilege and ableism on this thread

I would love to believe you, and it certainly sounds like the majority absolutely are more clued up, but there are some posts from posters who say they are teachers that definitely dont measure up to this

Except that if the universal “detention for forgetting a piece of equipment” rule were applied, you wouldn’t be able to make allowances for the otherwise responsible student who forgot something for the first time. And that student would then lose all respect for you and the rules. I can see giving a detention to those who are consistently unprepared, but not for a first offense.

If were that student, I would just refuse the detention. I suppose the school could then escalate to isolation, exclusion etc, but that’s a fairly laughable threat given how most schools won’t even exclude for repeated bullying, assaults on teachers etc.

The idea is you” train” from yr 7 into establishing routines for learning such as having a pen , turning up to lessons on time , not talking over the speaker ( be it teacher or another student contributing ) so you can learn and contribute and grow Easier when children are younger, eager and biddable as any parent of teenagers will tell you .

IF your yr7 refuses the consequence point blank for the little things , . You got bigger problems later on . You are seeing this from an adult perspective . Honestly they don’t give it that much thought if parents say tough suck it up
Hence back in the day , I literally had kids who quite liked scrubbing the desks !!! A chance to talk to an adult . Even today a dept detention quite often turns into a bit of to give a chance 1:1 to see what’s going on , have a restorative chat and give some attention to a student . Often ironically often followed by a safe guarding referral after they leave and then me chasing down the safe guarding lead before they leave the site, ensure the paperwork is done , you DON’Tv toddle off home saying “ oh well I tell someone tomorrow .. “
.

And we expect those students who always skip class, to the point that they don’t even know where the classrooms are, to turn up when given a detention?

The only students who will go along with draconian punishments for tiny mistakes are those who are used to following the rules. All this system will accomplish is that the school loses the respect of otherwise good students and their parents, on top of dealing with those who don’t give a shit.

And we expect those students who always skip class, to the point that they don’t even know where the classrooms are, to turn up when given a detention?

I don't know about you but I expect those that don't turn up for detentions to have the sanction escalated to the next appropriate level.

It's as if academy heads all collectively watched The Order of The Phoenix and decided Hogwarts under Professor Umbridge was the model for state secondary schools. And as in that book/film it was ministerial political meddling at the heart of it.

Those who feel schools are too draconian these days, how would you do it?

Schools have always had rules that people think are stupid; same as society. But what's the alternative?

I've been teaching over 20 years and schools haven't changed that much in terms of rules. If anything, some areas have been become more lax. When I started, hearing a kid swear in a corridor meant suspension. Now even if they swear at you, and you have witness statements, they might get an after school detention.

If schools were filled with kids like my dd, who's almost too good to be true (outside the home), you wouldn't need rules other than 'be nice and do your best'. But they're not. They have many more like my ds. And many, many more whose parents tell them that schools are stupid and the rules aren't really for them.

I would much, much rather be a kid in a school today than back in the 90s, although I do think the curriculum needs a massive overhaul.

I would fund them better so they would be able to supply basic stationary for students and a good education for SEN students. I would pay teachers a higher wage and have more of them so they aren't so burned out. I want teachers who love teaching and can inspire our next generation.

I would have practical, affordable uniforms and not stress about socks or minor infractions and certainly not give detentions for it. Isolation would be done away with apart from severe behaviour where the focus would be restorative and 121 safeguarding - why are they acting out? Are they just a bully or are they being abused at home.

I would want less exams and more course based learning. Putting emphasis on creative, innovative thinking rather than academic sheep dip. I'm not an educator though so I'm just giving my thoughts and there are many more.

Children will rebel at the most simple rules and this is life but it seems that with many more school refusers and many parents who are engaged in their child learning speaking out that something isn't right?

I never actually said that detentions were the appropriate punishment but just highlighted that although it seems minor it is irritating and disruptive to the whole class and that the others students will get as irritated as the teachers.

As it happened my school decided to stop giving these kids detentions and initiated a reward system where they got to go to the zoo at the end of term of they cooperated more. That didn't work either

It's a pen. No one in the UK is so deprived that they cannot afford a pen. I grew up in a home where no one worked - we survived on benefits. I had a pen for school. I now work with families who rely on food parcels to get them through. They are able to get themselves a pen.

If I ever taught a child I felt was was so deprived they could not be supplied with a pen of course I would give them all of the stationery they needed. I frequently brought in 'extra' food to make sure that the children in my class I knew were hungry got something to eat. I also managed to discretely provide free places on school trips to those who would otherwise find it impossible to go.

But, please, do not tell me there is a family in the UK who could not afford a pen for their child.

@calimali

But, please, do not tell me there is a family in the UK who could not afford a pen for their child.

A pen or ruler is cheaper than a bag of crisps or a cheap chocolate bar. Supermarkets do basic stationery sets in Summer for under a pound or a full set including protractor, compass, etc for £2 or £3 - the same cost as a multipack of chocolate bars or crisps! So yes, they ARE affordable for all. It's just a matter of planning and priorities - but still not the child's fault if their parents won't provide them, so a punishment of the child of any form is entirely wrong.

Totally agree that it is unfair to punish a child if the family do not provide them with the equipment they need. But when you have handed out literally hundreds of pens which don't get returned then you know they DO have a pen. Some children just can't be bothered to keep to the rules or look in their bags to find what they need. It's a way to disrupt and delay the lesson.

No one in the UK is so deprived that they cannot afford a pen
I now work with families who rely on food parcels to get them through.

If you cannot see the lack of logic between those two statements...

If a family cannot afford to buy food they cannot afford to buy a pen. Yes most will go without in order to buy school supplies for their children but thats not the same as affordability 🙄

It's a pen. No one in the UK is so deprived that they cannot afford a pen. I grew up in a home where no one worked - we survived on benefits. I had a pen for school. I now work with families who rely on food parcels to get them through. They are able to get themselves a pen.

Even if it was true a pen was unaffordable - most schools teachers and even other kids and parents aren't begrudging pens to those kids.

It the ones turning up disrupting lessons with no pens time after time because they think this means they don't have to do the work - and often break or lose pens they are given - DC school is oddly full of such kids.

So detention threats - did work - as many teacher on here have said it should be a rarely used deterrent and yes there should be leeway for home situations and SEN.

I do wonder though it the lower expectations of todays students is perhaps driving schools to get increasingly petty as it drives an erosion of trust between students and parents and schools. Turning up to lessons with means to take part or expectation they sort it out with fellow students so they have equipment to engage shouldn't need spelling out to students or parents - so not being prepared should be exception not the norm and it would help those kids with actual compliance problems be seen from those taking the piss.

I do wonder though it the lower expectations of todays students is perhaps driving schools to get increasingly petty as it drives an erosion of trust between students and parents and schools.

Its a bit chicken and egg though surely

Yes it could be that the students are misbehaving and this ie causing harsher rules to be applied because the schools no longer trust the pupils

Or it could be that the schools harsher rules are causing the students not to trust the schools which in turn impacts engagement and enthusiasm for learning

I know Ive seen plenty of threads on here over the years about people getting new jobs because their boss is micro managing, or because its an overly strict environment or because they are made to feel uncomfortable. Why should children be more emotionally intelligent and resilient than those adults?

In reality its probably a combination of both with a whole host of other factors and complexities combined.

I'm sure the news bombardment of how we are all doomed by the environmental crisis, or how AI is going to take all jobs aren't exactly motivators to work hard at school for starters. And where is the motivator if you have two parents working hard at their jobs becoming increasingly poor due to the cost of living crisis. It certainly might not come across that hard work pays off when often at the moment it doesnt.

Yes it could be that the students are misbehaving and this ie causing harsher rules to be applied because the schools no longer trust the pupils

Or it could be that the schools harsher rules are causing the students not to trust the schools which in turn impacts engagement and enthusiasm for learning

True - I do know DC school pen issue is no more which did please my kids but so many other petty rules or ones I have issues with like toilet restricting - have disenchanted them and they do just want out.

Does feel like a doom loop and that its often a distraction from what we think is the schools main job actually teaching our kids to get the best exam marks they can.

I think disengagement with school goes a lot deeper than claiming not to have a pen and won't be solved by providing pens or giving detentions. The disruptive kids (for whatever reason) probably just regard detentions as a fact of life and aren't that bothered.

Personally, I think this "one size fits all" approach of Comps has ruined our once excellent education system over the past 50 years. It's basically chucked all kids into an overly "academic" education system that many of them aren't capable of and it's no surprise they lose interest and start being disruptive as a response to being bored or incapable. We really threw the baby out with the bathwater all those years ago!

We need different schools so that the non academic kids can go down a different path, i.e. manual skills/trades, etc and learn something useful that they can identify with during their mid teen years!

From my own school days, it was very noticeable that the "pain in the arse" pupils who were disruptive in, say, Maths, were actually quiet and hard working is practical subjects like art or woodwork that they could do and identify with!

And no, I don't deny that there were problems with the old system of grammars and sec mods/technical schools, but their scrapping was little more than politics (as usual mostly the politics of envy), and the inherent problems could have been resolved and the two tier system kept rather than scrapping it completely. I.e. maybe more options for transfer between the two types rather than it being rigidly fixed at age 11, or changes to the 11+ exam, or beefing up the secmods/technical schools to teach to GCE and not just CSE etc. So many alternatives were available, but seemingly just ignored with the rush to scrap grammars!

Again, there is a massive difference between a 10p biro and a week's shopping. No one in the family is going hungry to buy a pen that will probably last the whole school year.

No one in the UK is living in absolute poverty. Relative poverty, yes. I see it. It is appalling in this day and age. But no, not absolute poverty. There are children in the world who truly cannot afford a pen, but not in the UK.

Enabling poorly behaved children to get away with not having a pen on the grounds that they are poor is doing them no favours. Schools are trying to equip them with life skills - which includes being responsible for organising themselves and remembering the very basic tool they need for the day. It is hardly a shocker that if you are going to to school you need a pen. It really isn't about pens or poverty. It is about following basic, sensible rules. Just as they will have to do once they leave school.