School detention for forgetting a ruler?

[Wizardo]

Just interested - how many people have secondary school aged kids whose school gives a detention for forgetting basic equipment like a ruler?

I wonder does it really teach kids to be organised. Surely it just means disorganised people get lots of detentions? And feeds anxiety?

My schooling in the 90s felt pretty strict but this seems borderline bonkers. My dd currently “can’t borrow a school library book for the rest of the year” as she’s so anxious about getting a detention because she handed her last book in two weeks late. So now we are visiting our local library instead to provide her with books to read! I have obviously told her to just get the detention over and done with but she is adamant and determined to avoid it.

vote Yabu for No detention given
and Yanbu for Detention given.

Neurodivergent and being punished for forgetting things doesn't mean "disrupting your son's learning in class."

That's the whole point of the thread.

But why an after school detention? the alternative isn't to just let it slide.

By all means pick kids up on it, a telling off and a warning.
Next time it happens a lunchtime detention. Repeated it gets to after school detention.
That seems a better balance to ensure the rule is in place and not letting it become a free for all but without creating nearly as much stress by jumping on every tiny misstep.

The better solution would be for parents to actually play their part and make sure their child has the right colour socks. Making sure a child has the correct equipment (whether that is a ruler or correct socks) should be the parents job. So if parents supported the school and 99% had the correct socks/equipment, the 1% can easily be dealt with by a reminder/warning/don't do it again.

The problem in schools at the moment is that at least 50% of parents are absolving responsibility yet criticising schools for trying to address it.

The better solution would be no uniforms at all like for most people, the rest of your life, and the rest of the world.

And in terms of anxiety/stress, again, is that really the schools fault? Or the parents by failing to provide what the child needs?

Why has stress/anxiety drastically increased? And does it correlate to reduced support from parents? I strongly suspect so.

Yes of course it is the school's fault - more broadly the education system's fault when it doesn't work for so many children. And as many people have stated on here, it hasn't really been working for many years and recent changes have just made it worse. It doesn't work for so many teachers either, they have left the profession in droves. Perhaps they were badly parented as well as they don't fit into the system.

Have you read any of the thread or have you just come to spew out bile @fuckityfuckityfuckfuck ?

Also have you been on Mars or did you hear about the pandemic, @fuckityfuckityfuckfuck ?

Mental and physical health problems have massively increased throughout society- why would children not be affected? Do you think they live in a bubble?

"in March 2022, one in three UK adults reported that their mental health had deteriorated because of the pandemic."

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/covid-19/what-the-bma-is-doing/the-impact-of-the-pandemic-on-population-health-and-health-inequalities#:~:text=The%20pandemic%20has%20exacerbated%20health,health%20outcomes%20before%20COVID%2D19.

@Maxus your comments make it very clear that you have no ability to understand the why behind what is happening.

I'd wager the majority of people on this thread making space and allowances either were children who had neglectful parents/additional needs, or work with them.

You could come and work in children's social care if you like, you'll catch on quite quickly.

Please tell me how exactly it is the school's fault a child doesn't have a ruler or correct socks?

You work in children's social care and don't think there is any correlation between parental attitudes and children's stress/anxiety?

@fuckityfuckityfuckfuck I'm coming at this as the parent of a child who has all the kit, and who sits with her every night as she packs her bag. She packs and unpacks it repeatedly as she's so stressed about forgetting anything.

She wasn't the one without a ruler or with grey socks but she is being damaged by the environment of fear the school has created.

I have a good kid who desperately wants to stay on the right side of the rules who now HATES school and doesn't want to go.

And I won't ever agree that this is acceptable collateral damage of the way schools choose to manage behaviour

Yep. I've mentioned how DD2's various ND diagnoses mean she'll forget things with ease (like shoes and skirts!) - but in a classroom she is the model student. She's so anxious about not breaking rules or upsetting people that her behaviour is always impeccable.

Means she's a walking ball of anxiety and can get very distressed at home sometimes - which is clearly all of my own personal parenting cause obviously according to the brainiac twat brigade on here.

I think it would be excessive for a first offence but would be fine on a three strikes and you are out basis.

Your daughter needs to learn organisational skills to deal with these issues. You aren't helping by pandering to her by taking her to the public library. Help her set up systems for herself and give her reminders to get to the point where the systems are habits.

Obviously if she has additional needs or neuro diversity then the school should be considering reasonable adjustments and support rather than punishment.

@CoffeeWithCheese but this is about what parents do. If you have a child that needs extra help preparing for school e/g. with packing her school bag, then the parents should provide that.

I would also be concerned that being too draconian would increase theft between pupils.

Doesn't help with the issues that moving between classrooms and needing to continually check up on having all your belongings is going to cause.

We've drilled and drilled and drilled routines, strategies, tick lists etc - but these have only ever worked when supported by school being consistent in the same approach - which has happened on some very lucky years where we've had a gem of a teacher and not on others.

If you actually go back and re-read my posts - we've also provided resources ourselves and multiple sets of things so that school didn't have to take the hit out of their budget - so we've bought duplicates of things where she's worked in other areas of the school, and we've bought things like pencils she could grip and rulers with handles further down the school when needed... but secondary increases those demands massively and if school is one of those shitholes that believes kids just need to try to mask even harder and detentions solve all ills... kids are screwed.

@fuckityfuckityfuckfuck not sure if you read my updates, but my dd’s school explicitly requested at the start of y7 that parents should not actively intervene to help the pupils pack bags/ check inventory, or even monitor if homework is turned in on time. So I don’t police her bag-packing at the behest of the school . They want the pupils to learn to manage for themselves and their approach is to encourage this by handing out detentions like they are going out of fashion if the pupils fall off the path of righteousness. The school doesn’t make a drama of it - a detention is an everyday occurrence and seen as an opportunity to do reflect, do some homework or reading.

But why does it matter what colour socks someone has on? I don't understand what impact it has on children's learning other than making them hate school. They never had these rules when I was at school and apparently the behaviour has never been so bad so these ridiculous rules around socks obviously aren't helping?

@MotherofChaosandDestruction ,

I am not massively convinced re uniform and I got into trouble for never handing out any uniform penalties. But then I taught at a ‘nice’ private school.

The theory of zero tolerance came from NY under Giuliani (I think, it may have earlier roots). The idea is that if you show zero tolerance for low level disobedience, then it sets the standards and prevents bigger crimes. In NY, it was claimed that being tough on graffiti reduced the murder rate.

But those who are fans of uniform do, correctly, say that the clue is in the name. If everyone dresses the same, smartly and ‘professionally’, they are in a good state of mind to do work and no one tries to distinguish themselves by dressing differently.

You either subscribe to uniform or you don’t (personally I don’t) , but there are arguments in both directions and, if you have uniform, everyone has to wear it the way it is meant to be worn.

Strangely the kids who never have a pen, pencil or ruler never forget to have their phone on them.

Selective memory loss.

I was sick and tired of using my own money to provide stationery to have it stolen or returned to me all chewed up and too unhygienic to reuse.

I do generally agree with uniforms. I think having a standard, practical and affordable uniform helps parents and schools but how we are going with blazers, branded skirts/trousers, ties and socks that can only be bought at specific shops or you get detention. I just think we are creating an environment that isn't healthy and is not inspiring the next generation.

I have taught in secondary schools periodically since the late 90s, in various areas of the country and catchments and interestingly I have returned to a school & teaching( after a long career break due to caring responsibilities ) periodically as a favour to old colleagues in a shortage subject during covid covering mat leaves . I have a completely different flexible career outside teaching I’m one of those who has “ left “ but I have come back during key times like the pandemic
an earlier poster mentioned things like swapping a shoe or a phone and they would MAKE the student give them these things . I can recall clearly using this kind of classroom management technique occasionally to frequent flyers in the early noughties in a nice area school & also in a deprived area who would accept this would good grace and the class would have a bit of a chuckle , spare pen given out & returned . A non issue as you say . Particularly in the poorer deprived areas kids didn’t bring bags but they did return the equipment or hung on to it . I understood some kids and parents pens are the least of their problems
Job done. I’ve seen the poem about the teacher fussing about a pen on many training days . We get it . We understand

I would not use this technique on a nervous yr 7 more perhaps a cheeky chappie in yr10 I had built a relationship with .

i would not use this technique now . It would likely result in major disruption , possibly defiance or even if the offender was happy to give up said “ shoe “ - four or five students would easily start shouting out that I was unfair , outrageous , I had no right etc and use this as an opportunity to disrupt the lesson , walk out demand to talk to oncall or slt etc .

likewise it would not work with the ND students in my class and confuse them . 10 years ago I might have had one child with EHCP in a lower set of 10 students . Now I have at least 3 in a class of 32 with one TA on a good day plus at least 5 more with no diagnosis in a traditional style teaching set up in that works towards exams.

I would expect parental complaints about a shoe swap and probably a reminder from slt that this wasn’t a good idea . The burly HOF of pe might get away with it but again rarely does

everything in schools has to be totally black and white now in terms of rules. They are communities not businesses . With these seemingly draconian little rules they run a lot better.

After my last sixth month stint in education I’m not going back again . It is extremely hard and poorly paid . The behaviour of some students has changed . There are a lot SEND students in the mainstream who are being shortchanged in the name of inclusion . Society has changed. Teaching could be fun , you had difficult times but it was quite like the glossy adverts tempting people into teaching - changing lives etc . It’s not like that now - it’s really HARD .

I noticed a lot of outright hostility from students and parents that just wasn’t there a decade ago . Same school down south but the area has changed due to the population expansion and the intake.

The PGCE student was agog when I told her we used to get kids to clean graffiti on the desks with astonish & a cloth in lunch detentions for a variety of small misdemeanours and some of the kids loved doing it ! ( This was in late 90s up north in rough deprived northern city .) Nobody died, clean desks and the kids had done something useful in dead time
Again It wouldn’t happen now .

I gave out spare pens like sweeties last time round . I took the tops off tho so they didn’t get chucked around . No time for checking what came back in . It just made life a little easier . There were bigger issues to deal with in the classroom management to be fair . I’d record a behaviour point for repeat offenders though . It was symptomatic of their disaffection . Easily have five students who didn’t get anything out their bags 10 mins into lesson . Unheard of even a decade ago .

ditismooi

For comedy purposes.

The last time I did a shoe exchange for a pen, the pupil changed shoes and left with said pen and left me with the shoe.
About two weeks later, I had an official complaint that I was stealing shoes from the pupil.
The shoe was in plain site behind my desk on a shelf and I had taught the pupil 4 more times since the actual swap had taken place. We had even joked about them remembering to take the shoe home with them, but we both forgot.
In the end the shoe was taken down to reception (as the request of the parent) where it lived for another term and a half before the parent actually came in to collect it.
The pupil found this very funny and we actually had a good teacher student relationship,

To you it's one ruler

To my department we have to buy 1000 pens a term to supply students who dont bother to bring a pen in.

That's money we could spend elsewhere out of an already tight budget.

And doesn't include the pencils, rulers, rubbers etc that we also have to supply your children with because they are so disorganised.