To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

@Mumoftwo1312

you are aware a behaviour is developmentally appropriate- ie that a child literally does not have the brain function not to do its AND its necessary for normal appropriate onward development and you are still happy to shame it? To shame a child who is unable to behave differently. And you don’t think that’s in any way formative?

The argument that children encounter shame everywhere so it’s ok is also flawed. If they are regularly shamed it’s MORE important that they feel safe to be their authentic selves free from judgement at home. Not less. Sometimes it’s unavoidable. That’s not the same as intentionally using it to punish them.

And if you think things being yucky is a deterrent, you’re in for a horrible shock when they are eight. They will DELIGHT in disgusting you. It’s a great sense of power for them. (Over your feelings, btw. Do you want your child to have power over your feelings? It’s not healthy for them. You’re setting yourself up for some hard work here.) If you feel it’s impolite or unhygienic to pick your nose, say so. Tell them to do it private. They will anyway. Do not delude yourself you are changing their behaviour. They will just lie and sneak and feel ashamed of their completely, normal healthy selves. And that is NOT a feeling I want my child to get comfortable with.

I also do not want an obedient child. I want a child who does the right thing because it’s right. Not what she is told because someone more powerful than her is threatening her with unrelated adverse consequences. There are a lot of words for that. It’s a terrible habit to be comfortable with. And I want one who questions and looks for evidence and educates herself. Who doesn’t take just anyone’s word for it, who wants to know authority comes with expertise and not just shouty opinions. And you know where kids learn those skills? Where they feel safe.

Do you want your child to feel safe being their true authentic self at home, or do you want them to feel they must shamefully hide all the parts that are not perfect to earn your love and respect (as an individual) because you can’t feel loved and respected and shame simultaneously? Can you accept that your child isn’t perfect and is making mistakes and learning in the secure environment of your parenting? (Even though you almost certainly be weren’t)

Teaching your child that shame is a normal part of a close relationship, and that they can only be accepted and loved in a family if they are unflawed, then that’s what they are going to look for in their adult relationships. I want a LOT more for my child than that. I want a relationship where she is supported when she fails and loved for her authentic self, even when she makes mistakes. Encouraged to grow and do better, sure. But not through shame. So I’m damned if I’m going to make that feel like home for her. Children seek familiar childhood patterns in their adult relationships. I will not allow my child to be comfortable with shame in my relationship with her. (Because it works is a terrible argument. Caning works. Shaming is just psychological harm. And harder to heal.)

@DarkwingDuk are you having a laugh? The irony of being rude and somewhat aggressive - you may be a “gentle parent” but you have just demonstrated that that does not extend to being a “gentle poster”. Tut tut - what would your dcs think?

I gentle parent because I have a child with ODD and it is much more effective. However what most people are describing is not gentle parenting.

I don’t think shouting is ideal (though occasionally in a loving home it’s not the end of the world) and hitting is a no-no.

But omg some of these posts. The long explanations and focus on ‘big feelings’. So much navel-gazing. I honestly don’t know how young toddlers learn from this; I zoned out reading it.

It is really ok sometimes to be stern and tell your child not to do something, or to do something and just say, ‘because I said so!’ I can speak from experience that you can bring up kids just fine without all this overthinking.

If you have a home with unconditional love where the child is prioritised, the detail doesn’t really matter. Don’t let your kid hurt others, teach them to behave kindly and respectfully, and choose a way that suits your personalities and your home, and enjoy family life. No need to label it or come up with a philosophy. And if you really must do that, then please just keep it to yourself and don’t preach or perform it!

Which part of this approach sounds inappropriate to be used in any home by any parent with any child?

Obviously there is an element of a child being able to fully comprehend reward systems, so it works best when you can say 'if you brush your teeth twice every day this week, we can go to the swimming pool with the flume at weekend' and they can understand it. Or some other reward they will want to work towards. It works best when it's stuff kids from average income backgrounds just get anyway.

So if they did brush their teeth twice every day for a week, they still go, even if they hit their sister at some other point in the week.

The system makes complete sense for all children (above a certain age) and is easy for a child to understand and make their own choices off of. They can separate themselves from the bad behaviour much easier this way.

Natural consequences are still unconditionally used.

A trip to a water park for brushing their teeth?! Gosh they’ll be disappointed at the work/reward ratio as an adult

This reminds me of those threads, where parents proudly state that they are not going to teach their children to say please, thank you or sorry until they are old enough to understand it all by modelling their behaviour on adults. I roll my eyes so much when I see this. You teach your child to say these because they are social norms and it will help them get on better in society if they use these words. Eventually, of course they will truly understand the context. Like many generations of children have before them.

The overthinking behind it is irritating and worthy and actually does nothing positive for the child but makes the smug parents feel like they are reinventing parenting.

@Peoplecoveredinfish

I disagree with you on the following points: firstly, you imply that it's developmentally necessary/unavoidable to go through a phase of pushing or hitting people. It isn't. Many many kids never do it, or never do it more than once. Secondly, the time it takes to "learn the skill" not to be violent needs to be zero. They need to learn it immediately, because it's not fair on the victims.

Let me use an example. At my dd's nursery (3-4yo room), there are three kids, boys, who regularly push or try to push other kids over. The others rarely do it. I know this for various reasons, including witnessing at parties, but one of them is that my dd tells me and in a very scornful tone. She will bring it up unprompted "Tommy is so naughty, he always pushes kids over". "George pushed me over again today. He always says sorry but I still don't like it. I don't want him at my party".

Now, no doubt those three boys have "big feelings". No doubt at all. I'd suggest my dd also has pretty big feelings, huge ones, especially when being pushed over.

I have no doubt that those boys will learn eventually that it's not ok. They'll "develop" the skills to process their feelings another way. At what cost? How many times is it ok for them to push my daughter and the other, less violent kids? None, that's how many. None. My dd is not going to be a punching bag for a boy who is slowly "developing" the skills not to push. What's that teaching HER?

Also, those three kids are starting to encounter shame from the other kids. It's happening organically. The other kids hate their behaviour and openly shame them and tell their parents to exclude them from playdates and parties. I can guarantee that that is producing "big feelings" too.

Nursery teacher here. I despair for our poor children when I read things like that. They don’t stand much of a chance in life, do they..

@Peoplecoveredinfish

I also do not want an obedient child. I want a child who does the right thing because it’s right.

Hit the nail on the head.

Do you want a child who waits until no adult is around to hit another child, in order to avoid punishment? Or do you want one who doesn’t hit the other child because they understand it’s wrong, and most importantly they understand WHY it’s wrong?

You can only control them via punishment for so long- they have to become self policing, and they need an internal, empathetic sense of right and wrong for that.

Shame when it’s used as a method of control is dodgy, because so much of what children do is developmentally right for them, and they really struggle to control it.

So, they do X, are shamed, feel bad (and they DO internalise it, obviously, otherwise it wouldn’t work) but- they can’t help doing it again, so the shame is compounded again and again- and that is very damaging over time.

The nose picking is a good example- yes people will think it’s gross, yes the child needs to learn to do it in private- but they don’t need to repeatedly feel shame for doing something that is actually natural and age appropriate- keep that up over time and the ‘that’s disgusting’ message very easily becomes ‘I’m disgusting’.

Like much of modern parenting, it is about making indulgent parents feel better, rather than actually achieving much for the child.

I must admit I'm getting slightly triggered by all this narrative of validating a violent child's "feelings" over the victim-child's material reality. These are real children getting hit and pushed over, it's not some theoretical psychological thought-experiment. And the "development" of the violent child does not trump the emotional and physical welfare of the victim child(ren).

the time it takes to "learn the skill" not to be violent needs to be zero. They need to learn it immediately, because it's not fair on the victims.

This isn’t actually possible. Children are not robots, they can’t just learn things to order.

They can be conditioned fairly quickly (for example, if you hit one every time it stepped off a rug, most would learn within a few tries not to do it- some would still take a while and some would hit back rather than give in),

but they can’t learn to do what is beyond their developmental stage.

Children need to not BE hit- so adults need to be there and be vigilant to stop it.

Not all children go through hitting/biting stages, but the ones that do need adults to step in, stop it and teach them.

It’s a ball-ache, mine has adhd and autism, it was an absolute pain to always be having to monitor what he was doing, but that’s parenting. It would be much easier if they would just learn the first time not to do stuff, but that isn’t how brain development works.

I think we have to agree to disagree on this. For me it comes down to expectations.

If a child is literally incapable of not being violent to other children (you imply that this is pretty normal, whereas I strongly believe this is incredibly rare), then in my view that child must be isolated from other children for their safety.

As I say, the other children should not have to be punching bags as a teaching device.

This is why gentle parenting gets bad rap. They're examples of permissive parenting, totally different.

No child should be being hit, because an adult should be there making sure it doesn’t happen.

If you are triggered by the developmental process of children then that’s awful for you, but it doesn’t affect the biological process of brain development.

Some children will hit given the chance- the way to stop that is to not give them the chance, and then to teach them not to.

Many toddlers will hit, push and bite. It’s developmentally totally normal. It’s obviously unpleasant for the other child but that doesn’t mean it isn’t normal.

I love how you can claim that all parents who claim to gentle parent act like that. And you double down on it in your comments.

Poor parenting is just that. It doesnt matter what it's called and by you perpetuating the notion that gentle parenting is something it isn't, even though you acknowledge that they aren't actually doing that, you just drive the idea that the only acceptable way to parent is with utmost authority and obedience.

The best parent in the world is going to get it wrong sometimes. The most observant parent will still mis-judge their child's reaction or next action. And the nicest kid will occasionally snatch or whack someone with a stick.

If you don't like how these people parent, don't spend time with them. Don't let your children play with their children. Say no to meeting up and if pushed say we have different values and I would rather my darlings weren't hit with sticks by children with no consequences.

But the least effective way of dealing with this, OP, is to keep meeting up with this group and then moaning about them on the Internet from your perfect parent perch.

Get a life and find some new parent friends who also have children that never hit,snatch or do anything else that your perfect kids must never do.

Also asking your kids do you want to brush your teeth... It's not the end of the world. Did you think to ask how often he says no? Removing defiance through consent can be very effective but of course she's probably doing that wrong too....

I hate threads like this. It's not wrong to try and be a better parent. No one is perfect but you don't have to spend time with them and you don't have to piss and moan online about them either.

I have heard the same from multiple friends who volunteer with or work with children.

We are agreed on not giving the child a chance to hit, and teaching them not to.

In my view it is necessary to teach them very urgently, immediately, because in a nursery or preschool setting, the ratio is 1-8 or even 1-12 at age 3-4. The staff can't be attached to the violent child at all times.

The only other option is not to send the violent child to nursery.

I disagree with you that it is impossible for a child to learn immediately that it's unacceptable to hit other children. I grant you that it may be impossible if you use the medium of long conversations about feelings.

I don’t actually know what gentle parenting is.

The theory to me, makes a lot of sense.
but the practice I see from some ‘gentle parents’ is just downright lax and laziness.

I do think we need to explain much more clearly to children about how our actions impact situation and other people feelings. But I don’t think letting kids just do as they damn well please helps either.

there’s such a massive increase in children who are rude and refuse to do as they’re asked in schools, because of the generation of letting kids just do what they want with absolutely no repercussions.

I agree. Particularly in a household where you have siblings and one is violent and the other isn't. I had to wait a long, long time for my sister to develop the skills not to take her anger out by hitting me. And I couldn't escape her, or hit her back, because I was older and was supposed to setting a regulated example that she could learn from.

Nobody appeared to be interested in finding out where I'd "developed the skills" not to hit back.

It's all just centering all focus on the loudest/most aggressive, as is everything these days it seems.

Incredibly rare? For children to hit each other? Children hit and bite- you only have to watch a playground/read mumsnet/spend a day in a school to know that it is not incredibly rare.

The urge to hit things that upset/scare/anger (especially anger) us is common- it’s just that decent adults have learned to control the urge in nearly all situations.

I had a friend who once punched an actor in a haunted house square in the face when he jumped out behind her- it’s a natural response to sudden fear. How many mum who don’t agree with smacking their children post on here upset because in a moment of extreme frustration and provocation they have hit them?

I think we are all, on here, utterly unanimous that it is totally unacceptable for an adult to hit a child, ever. I think we are all agreed that that is very harmful and even traumatising. It is not merely unpleasant, it is harmful and damaging for the child to encounter violence in this way. Especially if an object like a stick is used.

But... it's ok for a child to hit another child, "developmentally normal", and for the victim it is merely "unpleasant" as per above? To be bitten or "whacked"?

I get that it is different but its not that different. It can still be traumatising for a child to be repeatedly hit or pushed by another child. It is not merely unpleasant.

No, I said it's incredibly rare for a child to be unable to learn that it's not ok.