To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

Yes!! Treating other children like they’re some kind of learning aid for a child who is violent or aggressive.

Totally agree like I've told my 1yr old and 3yr old to be gentle while physically stopping them from hitting eachother at the same time 😂 some people just use the idea of gentle parenting to be lazy parents

Thank you, I was starting to despair. If this is the prevailing parenting fashion, it explains a lot about some of dd's classmates who regularly push kids, including her, over.

My own dd is not unique, the majority of her peers that I've met know that pushing is unacceptable and have known this for a long time, certainly younger than 3yo. They are quick to condemn those of their peers who do push or kick etc.

We are doing our kids no favours at all if we have low expectations of how quickly/how young they can learn this stuff.

I've never been convinced by these long rambling explanations for toddlers. Mine aren't old enough to know for certain if they're NT but at 2 they just wouldn't have listened to me monologuing about big feelings for long. The first part of gentle parenting I had to abandon was the (wanky as fuck) scripts you get.

I used to try and keep it simple, no that's not safe, no that isn't yours and as they got older I'd introduce concepts like it's ok to feel angry, it's not ok to do x.

I disagree with you that it is impossible for a child to learn immediately that it's unacceptable to hit other children. I grant you that it may be impossible if you use the medium of long conversations about feelings.

That just depends on the development of the child- as I said some will learn quickly AND have the impulse control to stop themselves, some will learn the rule but not have the impulse control (especially true for some neurodivergent kids), and some will just take time to learn.

It’s unfortunate that the ratios that are considered sufficient in child care settings are not necessarily in line with what children need, but again that is not going to change the biological progression of development. It just is always going to be a problem.

My son for example went through a hitting period, and he would usually do it after he had tried to hug a child who didn’t want a hug- clearly being driven by a feeling of rejection (rejection sensitive dysphoria is still a massive part of his adhd) but that doesn’t make it ok.

I am not an endless talker- the minute he began to raise his hand I was in there, lifted him away and said “You are NOT allowed to hit!” In a stern voice. Then he cried, and I explained, in short simple terms -named his feelings, what had caused them but why hitting is never ok.

If it happened more than once I took him home, because clearly he wasn’t able to control himself at that time in that space.

I probably had to go through this 6/7 times before he stopped- he never actually hit a single other child in that time because he was never put in a position where he was able to.

I’m certainly not “having a laugh” - a although I cannot deny your assertion that I was “rude and somewhat aggressive” is highly amusing.

Please do enlighten me on what exactly it was that I said that was even slightly rude or remotely aggressive?
I fear it’s more likely a spoon of projection that is colouring the way you’ve chosen to perceive what was written.

I agree wholeheartedly with the method you describe. Much of my commenting has been in response ti a pp above who would discuss jn detail about feelings with a metaphorical boy pushing a kid about a swung.

I agree. Like I’ve said before if this entirely child lead, ‘they’ll do it when they’re ready’, gentle approach worked then we would be seeing the most secure and well adjusted children yet. As it is they’re the unhappiest and most mentally ill.

Most of the going on and on and on is just miss timed and directed I think.

It isn’t a bad thing in itself necessarily, it just needs to be done at an appropriate level and time. So, if I shout “X STOP” I need to know they WILL stop, otherwise I can’t safely take them out.

Im quite prepared to apologise for startling them, hear about how they were going to stop anyway, listen to them tell me they are angry I didn’t trust them to stop, explain why I felt I had to tell them etc etc-

but they still need to stop before any of that (because they have a very bad internal sense of danger- they will freeze at the sight of a toy poodle but pirouette at the edge of a cliff)

Explaining (even at length) is fine- but make the situation safe for everyone first.

There's pushing for different reasons. When mine were toddlers a lot of pushes were a case of Child A getting too close to Child B and Child B pushing them out of their space. I'm guessing spatial awareness and understanding personal space is something that will improve for most toddlers with age.

All these kids are going to be very confused when they grow up and someone smacks them in the gob instead of appealing to their finer senses.

I think if I became prime minister I would make all expectant couples take compulsory parenting courses. One afternoon, every week for 20 weeks (and you would still be paid by your employer for missing work, my government would pay for this as part of its maternity/paternity package) and all expectant parents can learn about child development including how to talk to 2 and 3 year olds, creating rules and boundaries and how to discipline children in the most effective (balancing emotional wellbeing but also creating law abiding responsible citizens).

Gentle parenting is all well and good if you actually understand how children develop and learn. If you've done the actual academic research and have implemented it correctly it is fab, the problem is too many parents hear "gentle parenting is where you reason and talk with your children" and just go ahead doing that without actual any clue about the correct way to gentle parent. Too many people getting advice from uneducated people on the internet who also don't have a clue

All these kids are going to be very confused when they start school. On break duty back in the autumn I caught a reception child trying to poke his friends in the face with a stick. I stopped him, took the stick and said we don’t poke people, it hurts them. No one in a school has time for a long winded explanation/learning opportunity when someone’s eyes are at risk and there is a playground of children to supervise.

Younger DD is 2.5 and knows very well not to snatch toys/hit people/throw sand. It’s perfectly possible to teach them this without faffing about with a long chat AND without shouting. Everyone seems to forget that there is a middle ground.

@ducksinarow123 ”You can lead a horse to water” springs to mind. I may be cynical but in a lot of cases I don’t think it’s cluelessness, it’s that they’re doing whatever leads to an easier life (for them).

Agree. For some, it's obvious that having children is merely a goal and once that's achieved, the rest doesn't matter - efforts to do the right thing in parenting, "they will be fine".

Parenting is really hard and probably does shorten life spans for the parents for all the stress and tiredness it caused. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice.

💯 this. Too many people pleading with kids rather than setting boundaries and being prepared to say "no"

But does it lead to an easier life?
I think they are actually making life incredibly harder for themselves. Disciplining a toddler is easy, setting those boundaries young is easy. Try implementing them into a teenager who is taller than you but has never heard the word "no" and real, actual consequences.
Not easy, at all.

These sort of ineffectual parents are only bothered about whatever makes their lives easier for the next 15 minutes. They're not bothered about the future much. Then they're surprised when they have teenagers who are out of control.

True but humans aren’t great at short term pain for long term gain (see: climate change).

In my experience all that happens in that scenario is that parents continue to allow teens to do whatever they like, and societal systems pick up the pieces.

But, again, are the pupils who are acting up doing so because they are used to their parents explaining consequences to them, or could it be for any number of other reasons?
There might be a number of reasons but yes, I think this is a significant one. After all why not expect the same from other adults when that's what their parents are teaching them that's the respect they should expect.

And I don't think it's just a case of parents just saying we don't do that because....I think it's about parents raising their kids to believe that their feelings should always be considered and that the adults should always have to explain in detail their demands.

I believe that the best approach is a mix of both approaches. Explaining in detail when the reason might be confusing, ie. Why it's not ok to invite all the class kids bit one. Explaining very briefly in other cases, ie. You don't hit others because it hurts them and is unkind, and in other instances, going for the ' because I told you so' for things like bed times, doing homework etc...

Not everyone thinks that far ahead... I didn't believe it, but now I have to think that's the only possible explanation.

There are basic things in parenting so obvious, but people still get it wrong all the time.

Not realising every day is a part of setting a habit. And habits are difficult to change once established. Same for children.

Have to disagree on disciplining a toddler is easy. It can be exhausting. It really depends on the temperament of the child, the parents own limitations and their particular situation. You are lucky if your experience was generally positive. :)

’because I told you so’ is not a reason to do homework or go to bed. Or for much really.

A key fallacy (in my opinion) is the need to give very small kids the Reasons for every instruction. There simply are situations why it isn't always age appropriate to go further than "this is just what we do".

I explained upthread how my dd actually got a bit frightened by my (very brief and simplified) explanation of tooth decay. Simply "we always brush our teeth before bed" would have been better for her.

Or, for example, kids wondering why we can't just go out in our pyjamas. You could say "because pyjamas are only for bedtime" but that's not much of an answer is it. The real reason for so many instructions is simply "it's social convention" which is basically the same as "this is just what we do".

The problem with all these explanations, and the difficulty of explaining the need to conform to social expectation, is we ARE seeing a rise in children who struggle with conforming to social convention eg going to school. (And social isolation is terrible for mental health). Because sometimes it isn't always possible to explain the reasons for things being important, in a way children are satisfied with.

Homework is a good example. There will be (many) individual items of homework that are, of themselves, a waste of time. But altogether it is academically useful for children to get into the habit of getting their homework done without negotiation. Try explaining that to a KS3 kid for example (I'm a teacher, I've been there). "Sure, this particular Geography poster assignment is probably a bit of a waste of time but it's good for you to get into the habit of doing your homework without complaint so that you form good study habits which will help when revising for your GCSEs in four years' time..." believe me, if you say this to your 11yo, they'd be like, school is a pile of shite.

See also - absence rates rocketing

’because I told you so’ is not a reason to do homework or go to bed. Or for much really
I think it is. Other parents might not consider 8pm a reasonable time or that homework can be done after 2 hours of TV whereas I might have decided it needs to be done as soon as coming home, so it is very much a 'because I say so'. I might have explained by rationale once but certainly not every time don't want to do so and say 'but why do I have to'. They know already.