To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

I've only just got that far back up the thread, and was about to say thanks for posting, and I'll have a read as it sounds exactly the kind of thing I would like to see. However it is getting late where I am, and my youngest is a bit restless, so might have to leave this and come back to it tomorrow.

“It’s not like in my day!” add infinitum. And when it suggested that something a bit more substantial might be useful, nothing is forthcoming.

How about the report I just posted?

What about it? Teachers are experiencing increased levels of violence and problem behaviour- no one is disputing that.

Because you suggesting it was untruthful hysteria with your ‘back in my day’ post.

No, I didn’t.

⬆️ Anyway, goodnight

Yes- something a bit more substantial to demonstrate the link you insist exists between what is happening in schools and so called gentle parenting.

No one is denying the absolute shit show that is state education at the moment, least of all me- but you are convinced that it’s caused by gentle parenting to the exclusion of the many many other factors that most other people accept play a part- why is that?

So far all you have said is that someone else posted it on mumsnet, and she owns a nursery so she knows.

Every single generation of adults has complained about the attitude, upbringing and behaviour of the younger generation and said it was better in the past- that isn’t evidence, it’s the human condition.

The experience of teachers is evidence of what is happening, but it isn’t evidence of WHY it’s happening.

No one is denying the absolute shit show that is state education at the moment, least of all me- but you are convinced that it’s caused by gentle parenting to the exclusion of the many many other factors that most other people accept play a part- why is that?

I’m not teaching currently, pivoted a bit after having my own daughter. But I previously taught - mostly Early Years - for nearly 20 years, and I also have a more recent MA in Education. Due to the nature of my role and due to various personal circumstances leading to me moving a fair amount, I taught across a wide variety of schools with varying socio-economic intakes and different challenges. I also worked with/ visited a lot of nurseries.

I do agree that there’s been a shift in behaviour overall, although nothing as marked in my experience as is being claimed on this thread (that’s just my experience though, and I haven’t taught since lockdown so can’t speak to the effects that has had, beyond what I hear from friends still in schools).

Honestly though, people claiming to be gentle parents, whatever they understand by that, is really not the factor I’d pin it on! As has been said many times on this thread already, there is a great deal of ineffective or even actively damaging parenting out there which has absolutely nothing to do with being ‘gentle’. The times when I had concerns about how a child was being patented and the impact that was having in school, it was rarely if ever that I thought the parents were too ‘gentle’.

Issues over lack of boundaries/ routine/ too low expectations/ permissiveness/ whatever you want to call it do not all stem from a parents desire to be ‘gentle’.

Well, Covid was four years ago, so that’s just under half the ten-year time frame you mention. I can’t speak for primary and nursery aged children but in secondary since Covid we’re seeing more school avoidance, less resilience, more anxiety - there’s a definite shift (and it’s part of the mass exodus of teachers from the profession).

In general though I think too many issues across too wide an age range are being conflated here to find any meaningful explanation. A nursery worker says kids at nursery behave badly because they’re not being sleep trained - it doesn’t even make sense to suggest that’s also causing increased levels of violence among teenagers. Obviously different factors will come into play at different points in a child’s education.

It may also be worth bearing in mind that there’s an age (though I can’t remember what it is!) at which peer groups have a much larger influence than parents - even the most “perfectly” parented child can go off the rails if they get in with the wrong crowd.

She didn’t say bad behaviour is due to a lack of sleep training.

She said (paraphrasing) modern parenting seems to accept that a 3 or 4 year old waking twice a night or more is ‘biologically normal’, and that encouraging your child to sleep through the night will somehow damage them. Therefore some children come in exhausted and this exacerbates bad behaviour. They’ve never slept a full night through so it isn’t surprising.

There’s also the fact that covid and lockdowns lasted a couple of years- that’s a short time in the course of a 35/45/55 or whatever year old, a fraction of their existence.

But it’s 40% of the lifetime of a five year old, over a third of the lifetime of a 6 year old and over 20% of the lifespan of a 9 year old.

That’s the equivalent of 18 years, over 14 years and over 9 years respectively in the lifespan of a 45 year old-

‘only a couple of years’ of Covid shit is a massive proportion of their formative years for primary aged children.

I assume you aren't aware of the studies that were done on children who are sleep trained that showed they still wake as frequently as those who weren't? The sleep trained infants just don't alert their parents when they wake up. Their parents believe the child has had a better night sleep, because THEY weren't woken up.

Children are supposed to wake frequently, it's protective against SIDS. They wake for many reasons though, oftentimes it's purely connection. You can teach them not to expect that in the night, but it doesn't actually make them sleep any better.

The parents are better rested so they experience their child more positively.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Quite right.

So often people don’t realise what they are measuring when they use their experience as data- “I wasn’t woken up therefore EVERYONE slept well” doesn’t actually follow.

This book made me think of this thread (sorry, review behind a paywall) - pointing out that the increased treatment of adolescent mental health coincides with a massive rise in occurance, unlike breast cancer and tooth decay where treatment results in decreased occurance.

Without actually being able to access the study obviously we don’t know what it means.

From your description it sounds like it is mistaking greater identification of mental health difficulties for causation of mental health difficulties.

Oh yes, a daily mail journalist, well I'm sure she'll have valuable insights

Here is a non paywalled article, by the author, promoting the book.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-13120983/touchy-feely-parenting-therapy-Generation-Z-loneliest-depressed-young-people.html

(No I haven't read much of the Scottish study yet but I will when I get chance)

Jesus, what a hideously idiotic and ignorant approach to advocate for in this day and age.

BTW, is it really treatment of breast cancer and tooth decay that result in decreased occurrence?

Not preventative care and screening for risk factors?

It's typical of how some think though "in my day we didn't have all this neurodiversity and mental health hogwash, people just got on with it".

While those of us with much older relatives who have CLEAR neurodiversity or mental health issues which have blighted their whole lives as well as the lives of those around them sit here like 🙄

But equally if there was the same level of MH issues in, say, the 1960s then we would’ve been seeing mass suicide because there was no help and that would’ve been catastrophic. There’s a different between saying there was NO neurodiversity or MH issues back then, and just acknowledging they’ve increased as time has gone on.

Not necessarily, catastrophic mental health issues don't always result in suicide.

I had to laugh at my own grandfather wanging on about "in my day we didn't have ADHD/autism", as he sat there so OBVIOUSLY neurodiverse himself with MH problems stemming right back to childhood. He couldn't see it or acknowledge it. Didn't want to. Stiff upper lip all the way for him. Immeasurably damaging for his children.

TBH I think a lot of the reason some people are so insistent it's a modern thing is because "back in the day" it was hidden or treated as a behaviour issue, and they'd rather that was still the case because that conveniently means they don't have to actually deal with the problem.

I don't think you can put neurodiversity and MH issues in the same boat, either. You can recover from MH issues, plus there's a lot of evidence that ruminating over your MH issues makes them worse. Don't think the same can be said of neurodiversity.

If you are thinking about suicide (as a concept, not personally)- you should note that the rate has been falling for a long time, the most likely people to kill themselves are firmly in the ‘adult’ bracket (aged 45-55) and the rate is highest in the most deprived areas of the country.

So, the people most likely to kill themselves are the least likely to have been gentle parented (since according to this thread gentle parenting is far more common in the last 20 years, to go along with internet use, and ‘gentle parenting’ is primarily a middle class affectation).

No, but undiagnosed and unacknowledged neurodiversity often goes hand in hand with MH issues. Did for me.