To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

See, choices never worked with my daughter. They prolonged a difficult moment, lead to more frustration and inevitably lead to me saying no at the end.
Me: DD, would you like marmite or jam on your toast?
DD: I want peanut butter
Me: We don’t have any, so it’s marmite or jam
DS: PEANUT BUTTER MUMMY ARGHHHH

Versus:
Mummy plonks marmite toast on table in front of DD who picks it up and eats it.

Choices never worked for mine either.

And why are we comparing techniques used for children in care who by virtue of being in care, let alone what happened to them for them to be in care, are severely troubled, with your bog standard kid who just needs to do as they are told?

Does this actually happen, though, or do most children accept that school is not home and teachers are not parents and they don’t expect things to work the same way?
Well that's what I hear teachers complaining about regularly.

Teachers having to explain their decision, however much taken following the guidelines they are told to follow by the kids and parents. Maybe not so much primary school children but certainly secondary ones.

That isn’t gentle parenting. At all.

we don’t push isn't true - they just did!
they probably aren’t sorry and are just lying to get out of it. They damn well did mean it. they hate Johnny. So now we’re all happily lying. Confusing? Because I imagine ‘we don’t tell lies’ either.

In gentle parenting you state what happened, ideally from the child’s perspective (there was a reason the child pushed) and did your best to attribute a feeling. (Feelings drive behaviour) all feelings are ok. All behaviour is not. And then you help them make amends. Or model an apology. Encourage, but don’t force a non-genuine apology. After all we don’t tell lies……

gentle parenting might go……

I saw you were in a hurry to get to the swing and you pushed Johnny. Then listen. You may not have all the information. And you don’t know how they felt. You’re guessing. Johnny may have said ‘I’m going to break the swing so you never get a turn’ which is a big deal if you are 4.

I see. You were afraid you would miss out on your turn because Johnny wanted the swing, too. But Johnny is crying. I think he’s hurt. How could we help him feel better? Then work through ways to make amends, which may or may not include an apology, hug etc etc. If they won’t apologise, you apologise on their behalf. No big deal. Kids need us to do things for them sometimes. This is the teachable part. It’s ok to feel afraid you’ll miss out. It’s not ok to hurt. If you hurt someone you make amends. This gives a child power to fix their mistakes. We ALL make mistakes. It’s not helpful to teach that they are completely avoidable or irredeemable. If they can’t manage this feeing this time we step in for them. We are their parent. We’ve got this.

No one deserves to be hurt. It’s hard to wait your turn sometimes. I will always be here to help if you need it. Johnny feels better now, and you can both have a turn on the swing. I will watch and help you swap in. How the child could manage better next time. A child who is sure he will get a turn with adult support is less likely to feel insecure he won’t get a turn and not be in a blind hurry anyway. But if it does happen again, he knows he doesn’t have to hide those negative feelings, it’s safe to share them with you and you’ll help. A child who is shamed about those feelings by your embarrassment? They’re gonna lie. Or hide them. Or stuff them away for a bit and explode over the red cup when they get home. Much harder to parent, because you don’t know why the red cup is such an issue. They don’t know it’s not dealing with the conflict at the park that’s behind it, and you never will.

it’s mostly about understanding that small children have big feelings about seemingly small things that drive their behaviour, and helping them navigate those normal feelings, while managing their own behaviour socially acceptably. Not making them ashamed of their feelings or themselves. It’s about giving them the tools, and the power to do better, not shaming them for doing poorly (when they have few resources and a child’s brain). And it’s about using our power to teach them, not punish them. To tell them how to behave. Not just how not to. Shamingly negative feedback is not easy to hear. At 4 or 40.

The problem with shocked/embarrassed tone is it’s about them as a person. But poor behaviour management and impulse control are the result of a having a child brain. They can’t be perfect. Hell, most adults aren’t. It makes it about them being inadequate as people, it tells them little about what TO do,
and it gives them no tools to do better next time, or fix their mistake. And nothing about the normal and acceptable feeling behind the unacceptable behaviour, which is hard for kids to separate from action.

And that’s the point. Feelings drive behaviour. Punishing behaviour does nothing to address feelings and learning to manage them to allow better behaviour. It doesn’t even set a standard for behaviour. It even (in a minor way, but that’s how we are taught; many small incidents) sets up a dynamic where a child’s unrelated behaviour to others is responsible for a parent’s negative feelings. It creates blame, shame and powerlessness. Which can drive further poor behaviour. Your response doesn’t in any way address how to self-manage behaviour, or
even what you expect behaviour wise. It’s likely that good parents are modelling this well in other ways, of course. But perhaps not.

Choices never worked here either.

DS, would you like an apple or a tangerine?

NO APPLE. NO TANGERINE.

ohkaaaay 😂

The terms authoritative, authoritarian and permissive originated from research in the 60s but they are still used today and have been used in other research studies between then and now. They are observations of patterns in parenting rather than being prescriptive approaches.

It does still seem to be the case according to the latest research that authoritative produces the best outcomes. I don't know if these three categories still adequately cover all parenting styles but they do still seem to be the ones most commonly cited (there is a fourth one - low control low warmth - called neglectful or uninvolved, added in the 1980s). They do seem quite fixated on the idea of parents giving directions and children following the directions (or not).

I know there is also other research pointing out the harms of punishment and particularly certain kinds of punishment, and I'd agree on this point. It's not like there is anything in the original definition of authoritative that says parents must punish children, it says something about parents having control over children and high expectations, and their finding that those high expectations/firm limits were not detrimental (didn't crush children's spirit) when combined with high warmth and a tendency to explain the reason behind the parental request. That's the difference to authoritarian where the expectation is obedience without question, and with low warmth.

That's interesting @Naptrappedmummy I have always used a lot of choices with my DC and read recently that too much choice can be stressful for children and have found since limiting the number of choices my DC have been happier. Eg. Choosing between two T-shirts, but not the rest of their outfit.

I've found it helps them feel less anxious! Sorry

Yes it does happen! See my pp. There are increasing numbers of children who find it very difficult to share/sit on the carpet/listen to instructions/follow instructions/wait their turn/refrain from hitting (other children and adults!)/refrain from shouting 'No! I don't want to!' when asked to do something/stay quiet while the teacher is talking etc etc and you really do not have the time to gently and repeatedly explain to each individual why they need to share/listen/wait/not hit/not shout out etc etc. And these are NT children and it wasn't just the odd one behaving like this. As I said very experienced teachers struggled and lots were leaving when I got out myself.

I think some bad or lazy parents identify as "gentle parents," without having done the actual reading of the concept let alone the employing the strategies.

Definitely. I remember the first time I told DC1 off. I don't now remember what for, but I do remember his lip quivering and his eyes filling with tears. And I remember feeling pretty crap about it. But I also remember that correcting him got easier with experience. I got better at it, and he learned that it wasn't the end of the world - and that I still loved him.

I can see that gentle parenting appears persuasive as a concept. None of us like upsetting our children, but the parenting part means building foundations to help them through school and into adult life. Confident parenting seems to me to be the skill we should be aiming for.

Actually yes, you can. Particularly at that age.

I’m not going to just sit on my backside and allow my child to behave poorly - I’m also not going to just wrench a stick out of their hand with zero explanation.

The fact you consider it too much to simply explain something to a toddler, who is constantly learning, just shows your lack of understanding of development and how to assist in it.

I have years of experience and training in education, as well as a teen who I’ve successfully raised into a compassionate and kind person - so feel free to make your assumptions but be mindful that just because you cannot fathom something doesn’t make it impossible.

I'm under no illusion that using a mildly shocked tone is using shame.

Firstly, it works. And if your kid is pushing or hitting other kids, you must employ a method that works. I've observed (in other families) that other methods rarely work.

Secondly, I think that if you do it mildly enough, very mildly, it doesn't do harm.

Thirdly, children will encounter shame all the time throughout their lives. I'm of the opinion that tiny amount delivered mildly from their parents almost inoculates them from the experience in the future. If you let your child believe that their behaviour isn't shameful, they'll be in for a shock at school or elsewhere when members of the public tell them in no uncertain terms, it is shameful behaviour.

For example my 3yo dd has taken to picking her nose and eating it. I'm aware that this is developmentally common, but it's still not socially acceptable. So I say, in a very very mildly disgusted tone, half laughing, "oh dd are you picking your nose? That's yucky isn't it!" She laughs and stops. No need to break it down into feelings and other over-explanation about how picking one's nose makes other people feel. There's just no need.

Why do they always need to do as they are told?

So many things people go on at kids about are totally inconsequential, and seem to be said more for the parents benefit than anyone else’s.

‘Don’t run’ (said in the park), ‘eat that’ (said to a child who has just said they are full), ‘go to sleep’ (physically impossible to comply with so doesn’t make sense), ‘don’t eat that’, ‘wear this’, ‘come here’ and on and on and on. It makes me want to shout shut up and run away, never mind the poor kids.

Children are just people- all decent parenting requires is treating them as such.

They’re not small adults though which is how you are sort of describing them.

That's yucky isn't it!"

I don’t get this type of comment- clearly she doesn’t think it is yucky or she wouldn’t do it, so why phrase it as if she thinks something she doesn’t?

Why not- ‘don’t do that, it’s bad manners’? Clear and factually correct instruction.

By all means point out that you think its yucky, but what is gained by telling her what she thinks? (Especially in the face of evidence to the contrary).

Shamingly negative feedback is not easy to hear.

It doesn't need to be easy. It needs to be effective. We are talking about children hitting other children, even with sticks. Why does "being easy to hear" come higher in priority than effectively stopping them from doing it, permanently?

Hitting people just isn't OK. It is shameful behaviour, that warrants shame.

And if you address it young enough, that shame doesn't become a part of the child's identity. If you wait till school age, it does

Not at all, they are not small adults. But neither are they stupid.

They can understand clear language and boundaries (unless they are babies obviously),

biologically speaking they are highly social- they are programmed to want to please and fit in… people seem to approach parenting as if this isn’t the case- as if kids are born to be difficult or badly behaved- which doesn’t make sense because their survival depends on pleasing the adults around them.

Gentle parenting: Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Child B wasn’t done playing with that yet. We WILL give it back and you can have a go when child B is done.” Remove toy from child A and give to child B. Comfort child A while they inevitably have a ‘tantrum’ from the toy being removed “I know you wanted to play with that toy and it’s sad that you can’t do that right now etc”

When the child A is misbehaving in school who is going to go through that rigmarole when there are 30 other children in the room? It's children who have been pandered to all their life who find school difficult to manage because they're no longer the centre of the known universe.

Oh I don’t doubt for a minute that there are kids who aren’t doing what they’re told. But are they doing that because they are used to their parents explaining consequences to them all the time?

I can believe that if a child is used to a parent giving an explanation about why they shouldn’t do something but then carrying on doing it because the parent doesn’t actually stop them then yes, they’re as unlikely to do what they’re told at school as they are at home. But the isolated act of giving an explanation as to why something shouldn’t be done (rather than just saying “no” and expecting it to be obeyed without question) - does that automatically create a disobedient child?

The problem with the very detailed example above is this: in that long monologue about Jonny not getting his turn on the swing, the kids receive the vague impression that the violence was understandable under the circumstances, even if not technically acceptable. I know you're trying to subtly dissociate the two but it's too subtle even for adults, too long winded.

Whereas as adults (or let's face it, as men), we need them to understand that violence is NEVER ok, under any (non violent) provocation. The provocation is almost irrelevant, no one cares to hear it, it's just not ok. A violent man will receive unconditional shame and censure and perhaps legal consequences, regardless of whether Billy stole his turn on the swing, or his wallet, or his wife. The police won't be interested in the "big feelings" he had.

Not a teacher but a volunteer girl guiding leader. We are really finding, with younger ones especially - no or just following basic instructions are alien concepts to some. In a group setting we often don’t have time for lengthy explanations and are finding parents don’t appreciate the difference between how you can parent 1-1 versus a group setting.

But, again, are the pupils who are acting up doing so because they are used to their parents explaining consequences to them, or could it be for any number of other reasons? By the time a child is at secondary school any number of issues are at play - the fact that their parents used to tell them why they shouldn’t hit people with sticks, rather than just yanking the stick out of their hand, seems unlikely to be the crucial factor.

My school is pretty low on problem behaviour, but the worst behaved kids who are NT either come from difficult family situations or are massively overindulged. I’m not convinced that their parents saying “we don’t do that because…” when they were toddlers is the root cause of their behaviour.

I agree with that @ZebraDanios

The worst behaved children are either over indulged or (more frequent IME) they are raised in homes where they are constantly told off, put down, complained about. Neither are ideal. Positive and respectful is what I aim for (and frequently don’t manage!)

No, but if he is not taught to name and process those ‘big feelings’ as a child, he is far less likely to have learned the skills to control them as an adult.

Violent men are not, on the whole, created by parents who over emphasised and prioritised their emotions when they were children- the reverse is usually the case.

The provocation is almost irrelevant, no one cares to hear it, it's just not ok.

This is usually the case with adults, but children have to learn and develop into this knowledge. When they are small they don’t know it, and the reason they have hit someone isn’t irrelevant to them. They have to learn to processes their feelings so they don’t act on them as adults.

The problem is mine is fully aware sometimes, as most of the daily stuff has been repeated again and again. But he just doesn't want to bother.

I do think I must be a really incapable mum who has to resort to use all sorts of unfriendly tactics, e.g. reverse psychology, threatening of not getting snacks or just simply raising up my voice.

There's a strong sense that it's not his problem, but it's my responsibility to make him do the unpleasant boring things which would do good to him in the long run.

Just by explaining and hope they would be responsible to themselves with their little brain? No. Never.

I do still explain. But I don't rely on it and he also needs to acknowledge he can't "parent" himself!