To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

I agree that words words words are going to wash over a small child. Imagine how an adult would feel if every request/admonishment were accompanied by a long explanation. It would become very wearisome.

And, as others have observed, is the teacher at school supposed to carefully explain why you must sit on the mat ?

I also don’t understand the self-professed Gentle Parents on here saying they don’t shout at or hit their kids. Isn’t that most of us?

Unfortunately a lot of people don’t really understand what gentle parenting is, and are doing it ineffectively. The crux of gentle/respectful parenting is that you are raising children to be capable, emotionally well adults. Permissive parenting and letting children do what they want isn’t going to raise an adult who is emotionally and socially ready to take on the world.

I decided 8 years ago to become a ‘gentle’ childcare setting and hours upon hours of research went into that decision. I still undertake regular training courses and research sessions to maintain that title. Some parents come to gentle parenting from a few social media posts and just don’t have the knowledge to back up what they’re doing, and therefore can’t respond appropriately in these situations.

I have quite a few things to learn from what you said. 😂 Honestly, I know I tend to lecture a lot. But being ignored is the norm and that winds me up! I guess just have to reduce lectures, use examples and setting up the right habits to wait out till their brain is mature enough to make wise decisions 😆

So none of that is gentle parenting OP, hth.

Honestly why do people start condemning something when they have no idea what they're talking about.

But you do understand that none of that is what gentle parenting is, right? That's just bad parenting.

Hopefully in their school settings the children will learn that in this context their interest would be piqued, not peaked.

I think you can gentle parent and use a calm voice, there's no need for shouting (unless they're about to run into a road etc) and it's a good idea to explain why something is a good/bad idea BUT take the child away from the situation and ensure they actually stop. I do, 1. Explain without removing 2. Remove and explain and describe a consequence (normally leaving if they can't play in sand sensibly for example) 3. Consequence enacted.
I don't shout or get angry (haha she says) much at all, I just always follow through on a natural consequence such as the stick being taken away, going home, not replacing something broken etc.
I do think gentle parenting gets a bad name, when I was a child we were basically frightened into submission with shouts and smacks and I'm not sure we really knew what we were doing wrong, we just blindly obeyed. I think explaining calmly and teaching children is better but they do have to learn and actually listen!

It’s possible to be both gentle and firm. Don’t shout or react without thinking but don’t just let your kids continue with the offending behaviour.

I meant authoritarian, but it was late and it's been a while since I did my gentle parenting reading (Sarah Ockwell Smith, not random Facebook groups).

The missing out on a treat later/naughty step is punitive and would be considered authoritarian as they aren't natural consequences.

But making sure the toy was given back - AND a hug/distraction being offered (rather than emotional abuse like "you're turning out to be a real brat, you're going to have no friends", or withdrawing love/affection, etc) would be authoritative (AKA actual gentle parenting).

I was brought up with authoritarian parenting and I still remember every punishment or insult or withdrawal of love I got, for the crime of being a developmentally normal child, to this day... Punishments and insults did nothing to speed up my development, they just made me feel like my parents/caregivers thought I was a horrible child, when I knew that I wasn't. It fractured the trust I had for them every time.

Not brushing your kids teeth because they don’t want to is child neglect! Teeth brushing is none negotiable. Bloody hell.

but yes I agree, gentle parenting is just treating your children like human beings, but people are just wet ineffective parents and they pass it off as gentle parenting.

Some people think this approach helps but I think that they’re creating a bit of a devil, it’s just teaching the child they can do anything they want. I think as a parent we are there to love, nurture and guide our children into becoming adults.

Sometimes children absolutely need to have a consequence for their actions. They also need a good telling off too. My children are told off and told of their consequence (no PlayStation, phone, football ect). We let them mull over it for 5/10 minutes (even it involves then crying) and then we sit them down and ask why they did this and explain to them why it’s wrong. Always ends with a cuddle but the consequence still stands.

There’s no need to be mean with them but also no need to let them walk all over you. We know how kids like to push boundaries!

TBH I sometimes think the laborious comparisons between so-called logical or related consequences and unrelated/generic/punishment type things are a bit beside the point, and if you look at the original research that lays out the differences between authoritarian, authoritative and permissive parenting, none of that is mentioned at all.

In fact mild but generic punishments like time out, loss of a privilege, short term withdrawal of affection are all considered authoritative parenting as long as they are in proportion and combined with a high level of responsiveness/warmth. Given that the original study was done in 1967 in the USA it is almost certain that the authoritative parenting style as originally observed would even have included physical discipline, even though this is of course not recommended today. The phrase in the study is "Despite vigorous and at times conflictful interactions, their homes were not marked by discord or dissensions". Also "Power was used in an open and nonmanipulative fashion by parents of Pattern 1 [authoritative] children"

The definition of authoritarian centres on a lack of warmth and a focus on control (or actually, they use "restrictiveness") with expectation of submissiveness and use of fear. So physical punishment is highly likely plus it would be more severe in order to make the child afraid of disobeying.

I think that people today use these labels in a watered down way where "authoritative" means whatever they personally think of good parenting, "authoritarian" is anything they consider too harsh and "permissive" is anything they consider too lax. So you get plenty of meaningless statements where people claim something is not permissive even though according to the original definition, it is. (And an individual practice can't be anything anyway, as these refer to overarching observed styles).

Sounds like lazy parenting. I'm a FTM and LO is 10 months. I've already had to intervene 3 x when at soft play etc when an older child has tried to take something off mine or push them, no parent in sight. I don't mind telling another child off, I wouldn't let mine act that way

And when they get to school we wonder why they struggle with boundaries and rules 🤷‍♀️🙈

Ok, so we've both used the wrong name for it, but I think my point still stands. I think it's unfair to conflate parenting which involves punishment (the way I was parented) with parenting that involves removal of love, shouting and swearing, or emotional abuse (the way you were parented). I consider that the way you were parented was abusive and the way I was parented wasn't. I was punished. I was never in any doubt that my parents loved me and certainly they never swore at me, called me a brat, etc.

A gentle parent still holds important limits. They just choose them mindfully, hold them calmly and allow feelings about it. Not just say ‘we don’t….’ while allowing the behaviour. Choices are always given, but not age-inappropriate ones. Positive phrases are used, but not without holding limits. Calling those examples gentle parenting isn’t ’taking it too far’. It’s just wrong
I quite like this approach to education but really can't see how it has its place in our current society.

It takes a lot of extra time to apply it. It involves many conversations, explanations on a constant basis over the day to do it properly. Some parents might have the time, most don't, let alone the authoritative adults that the children will be in contact with.

What a nightmare for teachers it must be to be faced with up to 30 children who expect every decision/order to be explained and even debated because that's what they do with their parents.

I think it is best to have a two ways approach. Some occasions, or more important issues that are best explained in detail, discussed etc...but with requests that are just expected to be followed without question because there is an element of trust and respect that the adult knows what is best for them, end of.

What a nightmare for teachers it must be to be faced with up to 30 children who expect every decision/order to be explained and even debated because that's what they do with their parents.

Does this actually happen, though, or do most children accept that school is not home and teachers are not parents and they don’t expect things to work the same way?

I only have a sample size of two, but I’ve always explained decisions to my kids, and neither of them would even think of questioning a teacher’s authority. This certainly fits with the number of parents of children I’ve taught who claim their kids are way more compliant at school than they are at home (never the other way around!) - but obviously I have no idea how they’ve been parented.

That is not gentle parenting!

it’s passive parenting. There’s a huge difference.

This is why I’ve taken to saying I consciously parent. Which is what “gentle parenting” is supposed to be.
The difference being I would say “sticks are looking at we, don’t hit with sticks“ but I would do that whilst at eyelevel with my child, ensuring they are listening to me. If they did not put the stick down, I would take the stick gently. I would then explain that I was taking stick because they are for looking at. I would probably say “I can see you’re finding it hard to listen to me because sticks are fun, so I’m going to take the stick to make sure nobody gets hurt”
That is how you’re supposed to “gentle parent”.

That’s neglect.

I consider myself a gentle parent. When my kids have refused to brush their teeth I’ve pinned them down to do it.
After a couple of times of having to do it, I’ll just say „you do it, or I’ll pin you“ with a smile on my face. Kids will laugh running around „catch me mummy“, before flopping on my lap to have their teeth brushed. Now they do it themselves 🤷‍♀️

This is lack of parenting, not gentle parenting

Why do people even have to label what sort of a parent they are? I don't understand. Child free by choice but have looked after friends' children and been a summer camp counsellor on a residential camp back in my 20's. Also worked in a soft play. It's great to be playful with children but paramount to teach them how to behave so rules were definitely in place with all of the above roles including teeth brushing. Not sure why it's not obvious that if you don't then you are making a rod for your own back.

Although I don't have children myself, I have many friends who do.

One aspect of parenting that irks me is witnessing the use of idle threats to address bad behaviour, which are frequently not followed through on.

Bad behaviour should have consequences; otherwise, there's no incentive for that behaviour to change.

@DarkwingDuk fgs! You can’t do that every time! A full explanation of why they need to wear a coat, why they should not dash into the road, why they should not call Amelia a fat pig…. I wouldn’t blame kids for putting ear defenders on their Christmas list to block out the constant stream of reasonableness spouting from their “gentle parent”

It's a spectrum, isn't it? Punishments that makes no sense in the situation (ie 'behave now or get your favourite thing taken away later') are still authoritarian and are demanding blind compliance, rather than teaching anything. If your parents smiled and hugged you whilst handing you your (random) punishment, it's definitely better than being given a punishment with anger and aggression, but it's still in the same realm of parenting. We were both taught nothing other than compliance through fear of punishment.

Can we still use research from the 60s in good faith?

I worked in residential child care for children with EBD (now SEMH) and we were trained not to take treats/belongings away for unrelated 'bad' behaviour. We rewarded for 'good' behaviour, but did not take those earnt rewards away randomly for their 'bad' behaviour. They had nothing to do with each other.

Behaviour is now commonly considered communicative. Using natural consequences to keep everyone safe is obviously the bottom line, and then we would debrief afterwards to get to the bottom of why the behaviour happened (amongst staff AND with the child) and put plans in place to stop it from happening again. There was no punishment as a behaviour management strategy.

This approach is backed by up to date research. I use it myself, as I have seen first hand how effective it is at making children and young people feel safe, understood and respected.

Gentle parenting is about natural consequences and treating your child like a human and with respect.

Throwing sand, the natural consequences are you get removed from the sand pit. Explain this to them.

I wouldn't let a kid run with a stick anyway but if they were, I would say I see you want to chase why don't you ask the other child if they went to play tig (no stick).

We need to brush our teeth to stay healthy, do you want to do it before or after story?

I wouldn't even describe what you said as passive parenting, I'm not sure wth it is!