To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

I think that's unfair to authorative parenting. I would say I was raised that way, and I'd say the authorative way would be to say, "You need to give that toy back, or you'll go on the naughty chair/ miss out on a treat later/ etc."

I think a lot of parents who say they're gentle parenting need to learn exactly what it is from a psychological perspective. It certainly isn't allowing your child to be a feral hobgoblin with zero boundaries and an inability to know right from wrong, it's about how you teach those boundaries! There is a line not to cross and consequences of crossing it...that's just life! I have 4 children (all raised using what would be considered gentle parenting) and they and the stick would have been removed from the situation before they hit, that's just logic!

These are great examples and absolutely what I tried to do with my daughter in the past, but what I found it all that talking and the standard ‘gentle parenting’ scripts would just aggravate the situation more.

These days I’d just take the stick and say ‘oh oh that’s not safe’ or hold her hands gently, get on her level and say ‘no throwing sand’. If I tried to follow that up with the spiel about emotions or whatever guaranteed she’d start kicking off and saying ‘no don’t say that mummy don’t talk to me’, it works better to keep it really brief with her, then just quickly redirect ‘uh oh I’ll take that stick it doesn’t look safe, wow you were running so fast shall we have a race?’ ‘No throwing sand, do you want to dig a big hole or build a castle’.

Honestly she’d be unlikely to kick off about any of those examples, she’d know I meant it and she knows the rules well enough now to know she can’t do those things. More likely scenario is one that just happened this morning, she grabbed DH’s tablet from the bedside table and was asking to watch something. We don’t have screen time before nursery so the answer was no and she did get upset and try to run off with the tablet. The ‘gentle’ bit was not shouting or trying to snatch it back or whatever, instead saying ‘I’m going to take it off you in 3’ and she said ‘no don’t do that mummy’ so I said ‘do you want to hand it back to me then’ which she did. Quick cuddle and then offered the choice of weetabix or porridge for breakfast, no further discussion about the ‘incident’ needed.

The mistake I would have made even a few months ago would have gone straight in with ‘I know it’s hard but we don’t watch CBeebies in the morning, we can watch it for a little bit after nursery, it’s hard not to get what you want …’ etc etc. It’s all just so much noise to her and totally unnecessary in most of these little interactions. Then she starts making a bigger deal of it than it would have been too. No doubt it works really well for other kids though!

That's ironic, as you missed mine

Also, the idea on here that all the ‘feral’ kids or the ones are going to grow up with serious issues/ to be a menace to society are due to parents attempting gentle parenting but getting it wrong is pretty laughable.

There’s plenty of terrible parenting that has nothing to do with being too permissive/ gentle. As an Early Years teacher for many years yes of course I saw lots of permissive/ ineffectual parenting but there’s an awful lot at the other end of the spectrum too. Shouting/ threatening/ swearing/ smacking. So much lazy parenting/ neglect isn’t done in the name of being gentle, and is more ignoring the kids until you can’t any more then losing your shit at them and yelling or worse.

And the people who crawl out of the woodwork on every one of these threads practically rubbing their hands together in their excitement at the idea giving young children such as these ‘a good thrashing’ or some variation thereof - you’re revealing quite a lot about yourself and not exactly providing the shining example of ‘proper parenting’ you think you are.

Just because those parents are calling it ‘gentle parenting’ doesn’t mean it is. Holding boundaries is a very important part of gentle parenting, as is empathy. It is possible to both hold boundaries with children and show empathy to them at the same time. I think sometimes people just get very lost trying to do the right thing. I’ve taught for over 20 years and feel many parents feel the need for children to be ‘punished’ if they make a mistake. I think removing or supporting a child who is going to physically hurt another/take toys away etc is right for everyone involved but doesn’t mean that the child who made the mistake needs to be shouted at etc

Agreed. No screaming or hitting your kids. But setting age-appropriate expectations for behaviour and having zero tolerance for hurting other kids.

we raised our children in the heart of middle-class, North London. Goodness, there was so much permissive parenting in the name of faux ‘creativity’. Kids allowed to fold the menus into paper planes and throw them round a busy restaurant. Children mixing up the condiments and water on the restaurant table in order to make a ‘cocktail’. My kids felt very uncomfortable around this behaviour and did not join in. And I am talking about children from the age of about 7 to 11, so not toddlers either. I hated it. I was much more ‘strict’ than this and have no regrets.

That's permissive parenting not gentle parenting

I get totally fed up with that sort of behaviour and tell them off myself if my little ones in danger. They are usually completely shocked and stop immediately with just one clear NO

It honestly worried me as these children that are 'gently patented' will feel as they get older that they have the autonomy to do and say as they like. Meaning we have a world that cares even less about people caring for each other and a generation of entitled misbehaved adults!

@Imisssleep2 At playgroups and parks when you seen these things the parents are usually too busy having a social with other mums to even realise what their little darlings are doing, use it as a babysitting service almost.

Exactly this. MN is full of threads about “gentle parenting being taken too far” but whenever I’ve been out and encountered kids behaving badly (or, to be fairer, behaving developmentally normally, but not prosocially), the parents’ response is overwhelmingly just nonexistent: they don’t even see it happening because they’re too busy chatting or looking at their phone. I get that everyone needs a break etc but surely it’s even more important to be mindful of your child’s behaviour when you’re out and it impacts other people?

Yes it’s gone too far, I used to nanny when gentle parenting was starting to get popular and I thought this even years ago.
parents asking me not to say no to their child ever, that I’m too strict( because I said no and had some basic rules like ‘no running off’ I had parents tell me, no timeouts (and my timeouts are already quite ‘gentle’ as a result the kids were acting like hooligans, hitting me, running off etc. I began then nannying a more sensible family in a less trendy/ middle class area where there was a nice balance of love and discipline, the children were saints.

Theres no evidence in child psychology or education research that gentle parenting is beneficial. In the research gentle parenting qualities would be labelled as permissive parenting which has negative developmental outcomes for children, along with authoritarian parenting.
Authoritative parenting style (balance between firm consequences, discipline and love/ connection) has the best outcomes for social, emotional and behavioural development.

I agree. It takes far more effort to be ‘strict’ and firm and not let your child run riot. But it is worth the effort in the early years because then they become the kind of children who other kids and parents like and want to be around. That was my experience anyway.

@neff i had the same thing happen on a few Instagram accounts, people with phds ignoring the research apart from their own small studies and spreading their non existent findings as proof.

one account explained how when her toddler purposely emptied a tub of blueberries on the floor in a supermarket, she gave her a big hug even throw it wasn’t even a tantrum, she just did it. Would you not even encourage her to help pick it all up? Then there’s another one, dr Kirsty summer I think she’s called, claiming that sleep training is neglect, she’s trying to prove it with her research but hasn’t so far, there’s no evidence of this being true. It’s gone bunkers out there. I’m a trainee clinical psychologist now and can see if you don’t have easy access to journals how you would be pulled into this rubbish.

You’ve never heard about parents not brushing/making children brush their teeth?

Is this a thing? Is it common for parents not to brush their children’s teeth? It should be non negotiable no?

Of course it’s common!

We have terrible dental hygiene problems with children in the country- look up the statistics! Horrendous numbers of children having milk teeth removed because of poor diet and lack of dental hygiene (not helped by how impossible it is to get a dentist in a lot of places).

I find it hard to believe that someone who works in dentistry hasn’t come across this.

Teeth brushing is just basic hygiene, like hand washing after going to the toilet and having a regular bath or shower. If a parent is not ensuring a child has their teeth brushed then it's neglectful.

As for the other examples, I saw the fallout of this first hand when working in a school with Reception and KS1 children (affluent area). Very experienced teachers were absolutely wrung out managing the behaviour of children who had never been told 'no'. Long standing staff (both teaching and support) either left or took early retirement and the shocking behaviour was generally cited as the cause.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/08/number-of-children-having-rotten-teeth-extracted-in-english-hospitals-rises-17

@Southlondoner88

I feel so sorry for kids who have parents like this. Being given boundaries is a show of love and care. As you say this is neglect.

When my DN was little (28 now) the in thing was to explain why you were telling children not to do or to do something. I guess similar to some things OP had said. My DSIS used to just say NO! It worked. DN didn’t need an explanation for everything. When I had my DC 10yrs later it wasn’t quite the “fashionable”‘thing to do.

This.

Also, observers often assume someone is using gentle parenting when they're just winging it but it gets blamed on some kind of assumed parenting style.

Your DN may not have needed an explanation for everything, but I’d argue that total unquestioning obedience is not necessarily something to aspire to. Being told “because I said so” as a child may have made me behave correctly, but it also made me resentful, and I’d rather my own children behaved well because they understood why it was the right thing to do rather than just being told to do it. I do agree that, if a child is behaving in a way that’s troubling someone else, you stop the behaviour first and explain later, but I don’t agree that explaining what a rule is there for equals bad parenting at all.

The benefits would depend on the child. Both of my kids are very social, enthusiastic about learning types so normal school is great for them. Through work though (psychologist) I know plenty of kids who unschooling/home school would benefit massively. Normal schools are very geared towards a one size fits all approach and for any kids who fall outside of that in terms of learning or social development tend to not only do poorly academically but then suffer socially because of this. It can end up causing huge problems with mental health and things like what kind of friends they end up with which in turn affects things like behaviour. I also volunteer with the youth justice and I'd say around 90 percent of the kids that come through the behaviour problems originated with problems in school.

I agree too many explanations and negotiations aren't age appropriate.

I remember when dd was nearly 2, she didn't want to brush her teeth and (trying to do the right thing) I explained to her that if we didn't brush them regularly she could get cavities "poorly teeth" and eventually, if they got really poorly they could even fall out. She was terrified and for days kept asking me fearfully if she had poorly teeth. I wished I'd just said "toothbrushing is just what we do everyday".

Also, when kids hit or push another child, it's just plain unacceptable. What I get annoyed about is when parents don't reflect this in their tone. I think kids (like, say, dogs and other animals) really pick up on tone - a tiny note of shock/disapproval goes a long way.

Compare, slightly shocked disapproval: "Did you...just... push that kid?! That's not ok. Do not do that again." Accompanied by embarrassed apologies to the kid and the kid's parents.

Gentle: "We don't push do we? Gentle hands! Why don't we say sorry to the other kid?" - then expecting the other kid to accept your kid's apology "Jonny said sorry, he didn't mean to push you!"

I don't think it takes a child psychologist, just put yourself in your kid's shoes - the second option is going to wash over them especially after a few times. And yes he did mean to push the other kid so let's not sugar coat that.