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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

924 replies

gpbs · 20/02/2024 23:25

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

  1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)
  1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed
  1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.
  1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
MrsSunshine2b · 21/02/2024 11:56

Spendonsend · 21/02/2024 11:20

Well PDA is a type of autism and lots of adults with PDA dont work or have to work in non traditional ways. Lots of autistic adults with out PDA also dont work and have carers.

The goal for most autistic people is to be mostly independent though, to be able to hold down a job and cope with the basic demands of daily life. I'm not saying they shouldn't have accommodations made, but no employer is going to say "Do whatever you like, turn up if and when you feel like it, I won't ask anything of you." It's not really acceptable to just say "This child is autistic therefore he cannot succeed at having anything resembling an ordinary life."

Rosiiee · 21/02/2024 11:57

@stayathomer that's mad! But I think that's the age we live in now. I don't ever remember the dentist asking me if anything he was doing was ok when I was a child. The conversation was always between him and my parents.

Your example reminds me of being told off by principal for shouting too much at my DS. He kept repeating 'it's a safeguarding issue so I have to make a phone call and make a note of it'. Which makes me wonder if there's now extra pressure on adults to 'safeguard' kids and take their word for everything over the parents. It's a double-edge sword.

Gagaandgag · 21/02/2024 11:58

These are probably well meaning parents that don’t have the understanding of what it actually entails.
I personally prefer the term ‘respectful parenting’ which means respect works both ways with boundaries. Some of the examples you give are verging on permissive parenting.

But many might be taken out of context. She might not have told you all the conversations they have had about how brushing their teeth is important and when she said she didn’t brush them maybe she meant just not in that moment. It’s about finding a balance obviously.

I know ‘gentle parenting’ often gets a bad rep. However, at the end of the day, we do have to acknowledge that in many ways parenting has improved- in the sense of children can be more respected, shown more compassion and are actually treated as human beings in their own right- with brains that are still developing.

Creating a positive partnership between you and your child can only be a good thing in my opinion.

RhubarbGingerJam · 21/02/2024 12:02

I don't think being kind to your children leads to teenagers carrying knives - quite the opposite

This is what I mean If you don't use the gentle label we must have been cruel to our kids - we can't have parented with empathy, kindness and boundaries.

I hated forcing my youngest to do teeth - and obviously I and dentist explained age appropriately why it was necessary over and over - and I sought any way to make it easier for her to do - but it needed doing not least because she needed orthodontist treatment to avoid long term problems in adulthood and teeth cleaning needed to be up to scratch.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 21/02/2024 12:05

The key to this is therapeutic practices. It’s about trying to parent the child you have and allowing their personality to shine whilst keeping them safe and (ideally) regulated.

No one is talking about not brushing children’s teeth. There will be a therapeutic way to do it if it causes your child distress. But that requires more work than accepting a no and letting their teeth rot over time.

Spendonsend · 21/02/2024 12:05

MrsSunshine2b · 21/02/2024 11:56

The goal for most autistic people is to be mostly independent though, to be able to hold down a job and cope with the basic demands of daily life. I'm not saying they shouldn't have accommodations made, but no employer is going to say "Do whatever you like, turn up if and when you feel like it, I won't ask anything of you." It's not really acceptable to just say "This child is autistic therefore he cannot succeed at having anything resembling an ordinary life."

Im not saying that. Ive no idea how you lept to that conclusion?

Im saying that some autistic people dont work. Im not sure why this is so controversial? The national autistic society has 22% of autistic adults in any type of work. I am sure nearly all parents of autistic children are working very hard to ensure their child is as independent and work ready as possible. Theres not much scarier than wondering what will happen to your autistic child when you die!

But using PDA friendly strategies for PDA children is likely to increase the rate of work and education, not decrease it.

There are ways to work that are self employed, freelance, jobs where you have more control over your workflow, jobs which are very routine and not demanding.

Gagaandgag · 21/02/2024 12:09

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 21/02/2024 12:05

The key to this is therapeutic practices. It’s about trying to parent the child you have and allowing their personality to shine whilst keeping them safe and (ideally) regulated.

No one is talking about not brushing children’s teeth. There will be a therapeutic way to do it if it causes your child distress. But that requires more work than accepting a no and letting their teeth rot over time.

Yes absolutely! Just boundaries with respect and understanding of individual needs.

Perkatory · 21/02/2024 12:10

I do think that unfortunately we have this culture now where kids are given too much power. It's scary for a kid to know that they have that level of power. I've had a lot of judgement over the years (and threats I would get reported!) for telling my kids off and then letting them experience the negative emotion or consequence. I'm very positive, empathetic, and supportive of my DC. But I'm also not going to neglect my duty as a parent to teach them to be good people and citizens. If they don't like having that boundary set and want to sulk, stomp, cry, shout or strop then they can crack on. I am setting that boundary to protect them from social isolation and difficulty managing it the future.
I also think if my child is having difficulty managing the expectations of an environment and/or their own emotional regulation, the kind, respectful, empathetic thing to do actually is to leave that environment. I'm protecting them from shame and embarrassment at not acting in the way they would like. I'm keeping them safe when they are unable to meet the demands of that situation. I think that scooping up a 2.5 year old who is having a tantrum at the playgroup IS the kindest thing you can do, for them as they are not happy and also for everybody else there.
Which I think is the big concern we have lost as a society, the concern for other people. And that's what boundaries are about. Respect and empathy are wonderful things, but we can't chose to only give those to our DC. What about their class mates, their teachers, our partners, or other children, the wider family, the wider community, their friends and future partners, employers, etc.

Permissive 'gentle' parenting is failing us all in the future for the sake of an easy life today. It's incredibly short sighted

ElmtreeMama · 21/02/2024 12:10

I would consider myself a gentle parent but am the first to think/admit maybe I'm getting it wrong.
The other day my just turned 2 year old was impatient waiting to use a toy, she was doing lots of shouting for it, foot slamming and whining. She is very tall for her age and is often mistaken for a 4/5 year old.

I calmy reiterated over and over again we have to be patient, we have to wait our turn but I know others thought I should have removed her.

Every day is a learning experience though, I don't have any answers... I think we're all just doing our best

RancidRuby · 21/02/2024 12:11

SpidersAreShitheads · 21/02/2024 02:00

Here we go again. Every week there’s a variation of this post when everyone falls over themselves to slag off gentle parenting.

So yet again, for the infinite time, the example here isn’t gentle parenting, it’s permissive parenting.

I have autistic DC. We follow gentle parenting principles. I don’t ever shout because it just stresses everyone out and raises anxiety levels. That doesn’t mean they get free rein.

I do have boundaries and extremely clear expectations - and in a way that’s even more essential with autistic DC. They need to know exactly what’s expected of them, and why. I take the time to explain my expectations if it’s not obvious.

Also, we don’t have “punishment” per se but we have natural consequences which relate directly to the behaviour. I can’t remember the examples in the OP and I can’t seem to scroll back up, but natural consequences could involve immediately removing a child from a play area, or in extreme cases, taking them back home. I’ve done both over the years.

I don’t raise my voice with my children - ever - but I am very clear with my parenting. My twins are 14 yrs old now and they understand that in general, I’m a relaxed and laidback parent - but they know exactly where the boundaries lie. And they understand that I always follow through on consequences.

But I also believe in picking your battles, and not automatically saying no without considering if there’s actually a good reason. I believe that behaviour is communication and that it’s important to consider what might be at the root of behaviour.

I talk to my children with respect, and I expect the same back. And I get it. Even though they’re in the dreaded teen years 😂

I’m far from the perfect parent. I’m also autistic myself. There are many MANY things I recognise I could have done better. But the one thing that I think I got right is following a gentle parenting approach.

All of the above is spot on. Every now and again on here someone comes along to moan about gentle parenting but the examples given aren't what gentle parenting is about. It's pretty irrelevant whether the permissive parents in question or an observer to their parenting labels this parenting style as gentle, because it isn't, so not sure what the point of a post like this is really.

Moveonward · 21/02/2024 12:11

I agree that gentle parenting doesn’t seem to equip young children with an ability to regulate their behaviour in a group and has consequences later on.

behaviour that is tolerated in a toddler is not so cute and acceptable when they are 8-9 and sadly I’ve had friends who have parented this way not understanding why their child is now not able to play in a group and finds making friends difficult

MoonWoman69 · 21/02/2024 12:12

unloquacious · 21/02/2024 09:37

Years ago we had a family over for dinner, their approach was not to use the word no. There was a bowl with vegetables on the table, and their 5-year old helped himself to the entire bowl because he wanted to. Of course he didn’t eat any of them. Like the other food he piled up but didn’t touch. I questioned it but the parents said they don’t tell him what not to do.

Later on there was a bowl of crisps and he took the bowl and put his mouth and nose in it. Noone else had any, including my children. The parents laughed and thought it was very cute.

I'd have totally lost my shit! Don't know how you coped with that! Talk about going the other way! People like that really shouldn't have children at all!

Gagaandgag · 21/02/2024 12:13

Permissive 'gentle' parenting is failing us all in the future for the sake of an easy life today.

Here lies a problem though - permissive and gentle parenting are two different things

ThomasinaLivesHere · 21/02/2024 12:13

The examples you gave are bad parenting although it is difficult to deal with a toddler so I’m probably guilty of not dealing with each situation as well as could be done.

A few people have said about lecturing the child on their behaviour and getting them to apologise etc but a certain level of development and language is needed in the child.

Gagaandgag · 21/02/2024 12:15

MoonWoman69 · 21/02/2024 12:12

I'd have totally lost my shit! Don't know how you coped with that! Talk about going the other way! People like that really shouldn't have children at all!

Once again not gentle parenting - this is permissive parenting. Then gentle parenting parents doing it ‘properly’ all get thrown into this category. It’s very frustrating!

Perkatory · 21/02/2024 12:17

That's why I wrote it as permissive 'gentle' parenting, as opposed to authoritative gentle parenting, because although gentle was meant to mean authoritative as shown in this thread and others IRL it often means permissive and not authoritative

Gagaandgag · 21/02/2024 12:18

Ahh yes I understand now 😊

Orangebadger · 21/02/2024 12:18

This is not gentle parenting. It's permissive parenting. To give a child a choice to brush their teeth or not is bloody ridiculous and irresponsible, not gentle or kind. That child will not thank them when they have all their cavities filled.

StaunchMomma · 21/02/2024 12:20

Some parents do take it too far, I think. I can see the benefit of explaining why something can't happen or giving the child the opportunity to talk about an issue but when it results in them blatantly ignoring the parent and carrying on
the behaviour I do think it's time to switch tactics.

I know someone who does this hideous baby voice when talking to her twins - really high pitched, immediately apologetic and utterly ineffectual - and it results in them not only ignoring her please but sneering, laughing and rolling eyes at her. I'd go as far as to say they team up and bully her, daily. One time I got so frustrated with their refusal to put shoes on (which had gone on for a good 20 minutes and included point blank refusals and sarcasm towards her), all while she continued to just 'ask nicely', I picked up the shoes, took them to the children and said 'Put them on, quickly please. Mummy's waiting to go'. They looked at me like I was mental.

Some would say I shouldn't have intervened, I'm sure, but the kicker is that my kid was watching this with an open mouth and I'm just not going to have him learning 'new tricks' that result in him playing me up and ending up being told off.

I can tell you for definite that this kind of ultra lax parenting can also create absolute nightmares for the classroom. Children who are never told NO by the age of 5 are not ready for an educational setting.

RhubarbGingerJam · 21/02/2024 12:21

No one is talking about not brushing children’s teeth. There will be a therapeutic way to do it if it causes your child distress. But that requires more work than accepting a no and letting their teeth rot over time.

There must be a therapeutic way - but none of the dentist or dental hygienist -as we more there were a few - other parents - including family and many I met through parenting groups - HCP or a decade scouring the internet produced this magic way.

I've found ways for my kids to cope with many of their other sensory issues but never manged to parent them away - and teeth cleaning one that stumped me other than insisting it was done.

Does chime with my RL experience of self proclaimed gentle parents - experts on parenting even when they have no experience of the actual issue.

Ohhbaby · 21/02/2024 12:22

MrsWhattery · 21/02/2024 11:48

Fucking hell about the calpol! That's completely insane! Do these people not realise that babies are born knowing nothing and they learn what we teach them? How is a 3yo going to know that she doesn't need calpol just because she likes the taste of it, and in fact medicines need to be restricted?

I know I was gobsmacked!.
Both about the fact that that's how they parented and also about their apparent ignorance over medicine use .

BounceHighBaby · 21/02/2024 12:23

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Orangeandgold · 21/02/2024 12:24

I think many people don’t realise is that the first reaction sets expectations for how the child can and should react. Normalising hitting people with sticks etc. You don’t have to be a new mum to say “no” to biting it “no” to face scratching with they sometimes do.

When I was a first time parent, I did have boundaries but also I was very communicative with my daughter as I had to get on with life. If I did absolutely everything that my 3 year old wanted we would not have got anything done and she would have been very unpleasant to take out in public.

No, you cannot avoid the odd tantrum but all of the points listed is either lazy parenting or being too afraid of how the child will react. These children suffer when it comes to school (if the end up going to school).

BertieBotts · 21/02/2024 12:30

TBH I have not read Sarah-Ockwell Smith's books except her second child one which honestly I didn't find very helpful - so I can't speak much to the tooth brushing/bath example.

But I think to illustrate that there are a lot of things under the umbrella of gentle parenting, and why it's an unhelpful term to use:

Some people would follow a playful approach and persuade the child into the bath/toothbrushing by making it fun. Making up games or songs, buying a character toothbrush or toothpaste, coloured bubble bath, new bath toys etc.

Positive parenting would say use the play approach, or praise to motivate, or use a sticker chart to build the habit.

Some people would consider the above too coercive and like "tricking" the child.

A reasoning approach might be to explain about tooth bacteria, cavities, toothache and loss of teeth.

Some people would say that is unfair on a child who can't developmentally understand that yet.

I have actually seen people say they would let the child not brush and then when they get a toothache, tell them it is their fault. I cannot fathom what they think is gentle about this, but I've seen it called gentle parenting. Probably because they think it's a natural consequence.

Natural/related consequences would be to explain to the child that they may not eat any sugar as they have chosen not to brush their teeth, with the aim that the child says oh right, better brush my teeth then! (But also OTOH may be seen as a harm reduction technique if the child actually makes the choice not to brush their teeth).

Or the parent may choose a natural/related consequence of pausing/skipping a later, wanted part of the bedtime routine until the child brushes their teeth.

Some people favour autonomy so let the child do their own teeth. Some say you should then do them afterwards in order to ensure they are sufficiently cleaned. Others may provide feedback depending on the age and receptiveness of the child.

The Sears book (attachment parenting) actually says yes make it fun/try praise/try letting them have a go etc, but if necessary hold down the child and do it and be empathetic about them not liking it. Because with their first daughter they let her skip toothbrushing too often, and she got terrible cavities. RIE likely says this too, though their line would be "Thank you for showing me that you needed my help with brushing".

Some say all behaviour is communication, so a refusal of tooth brushing has an underlying cause that the parent should identify and solve the problem. For example, does the child prefer a different toothpaste, a different brush, a different time of day, warm water, a different method altogether. This might be more common when there are known special needs e.g. sensory sensitivities, autism, communication difficulties.

Some say all behaviour is a sign the relationship is ruptured and it's more important to preserve the relationship/trust than to force children to bathe/brush teeth as often as most people would. This might be more common/appropriate in a situation where a child may have suffered trauma or the relationship is damaged or new such as foster care. It is usually accompanied by a suggestion to do lots and lots of relationship/trust building at non toothbrushing times.

Some say skip the battle right now, it can always happen tomorrow (BUT they also hold the belief that in this case, it's important that it DOES happen tomorrow or by some near point). The point of skipping the battle might be to avoid developing a bad association with tooth brushing/baths, or to preserve the parent/child relationship, or to allow time to work out a solution that works for everyone.

Some say skip the battle right now, it can happen when it happens and they have no timescale but they do expect to get to this at some point. Part of Ross Greene's Collaborative Problem Solving approach (plan C) is like this.

A timed pause on the expectation, to remove pressure, is also part of a positive parenting approach, but again comes with an expectation that the issue will be resolved at some specified point in the future. It usually has a set decided length which isn't communicated to the child.

Some would accept a lesser version of teeth cleaning, because at least it is building a positive habit/expectation, but without a structured plan.

Some would try to acclimatise, like first just get the child to hold the brush (praise), then put the dry brush in their mouth for 1 second (praise) then put brush in mouth for longer, then accept some adult movement of brush, then for longer etc, then add a smear of toothpaste, building up slowly to 2 mins brushing with a pea-sized amount. (This is actually a behaviourist technique called shaping, but it's positive and at the child's pace so likely considered gentle).

Some would literally skip it because they are prioritising other things and simply trust the child will get back to it eventually, but don't make any effort to actively push this. (I think this is a problem).

Some may be grateful for the excuse not to push a battle on their child, or be too tired, or disorganised to have a routine, or too burnt out, or simply not know how to. (I don't think this has any redeeming features unfortunately, whereas I can see all of the others being appropriate in some situation even if it's extreme).

I was told by the founder of Visible Child I should let my then 11yo choose not to bathe, and he could decide for himself if being smelly bothered him. I did not think this was good advice. To be fair she does not call her approach gentle parenting (but many, many followers and fans do).

Sorry that was stupidly long. But see why "The gentle parenting approach is...." doesn't work?

HMW1906 · 21/02/2024 12:33

I’m with you, I have toddlers (3y and 11m) so regularly spend time at child centred places and it is really irritating, especially when I’m teaching my child to share and not snatch toys and if he does he gives them back whilst another parents is just letting their child take the toys, it’s confusing. I have loudly explained to my son that it is unkind that a child has taken a toy off of him and that’s not what we do whilst the parent and other child are still sat there…didn’t get any response from the other parent though.

I’ll admit one of my friends parents like this and I often avoid going out with her and her child now as it’s just too stressful, my kids don’t particularly enjoy it as they end up being hit or have toys taken off of them the entire time and on the odd occasion the child is told no she kicks off and has a tantrum then gets a treat to stop her from crying so it’s just not worth the effort.

I’m definitely not a perfect parent at all but I try my best to make sure my children are polite, don’t hurt anyone and share toys.