To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

I suspect these parents are very different at home. A lot of parents are worried about being judged on their parenting (myself included) and the modern parenting is so pro gentle parenting that anything other than that makes us fear that we’d be judged as a bad parent. So I do genuinely believe that it’s OTT when in public but more stern at home.

That said, not dealing with hitting other children, snatching toys and throwing sand shouldn’t be ignored, no matter how worried you are about being judged!

I have often parented other people's kids as well. We were at a beach with friends, their DS was an absolute terror and they never stepped in. He found a driftwood plank attached to a bit of barbed wire, and started whirling it around his head at high speed, near other kids' faces. This is a 10-year-old! His parents just stood there looking awkward! I gave it 5 seconds then marched over and wrestled it off him and said "That is dangerous, you can't do that". Parents said nothing. God they fucked me off those two, don't see them any more.

Kids at playgrounds/soft play who won't take turns/block the slide etc. I go up and loudly/firmly say "You have had a turn, the queue is over there. You need to stop doing that because no one else is getting a go." It sometimes works, and if it doesn't it can stir/shame the parents into action.

‘Bodily autonomy’ FGS over the brushing of teeth!

I dare say most children would refuse vaccinations if given the choice. Do ‘gentle’ parents who worry about ‘bodily autonomy’ just say, ‘All right, then, darling, you don’t have to have that nasty needle if you don’t want to.’

My needs as an adult are met, I find it sad if yours aren't tbh!

Well PDA is a type of autism and lots of adults with PDA dont work or have to work in non traditional ways. Lots of autistic adults with out PDA also dont work and have carers.

It’s not sad, it’s normal. Most people have stressors - nobody WANTS to pay bills, or go to work every day, or get up at 2am with an unwell child, or accept a suboptimal appraisal at work, even if they’re satisfied with life overall. If you’ve glided through life without a single discomfort then you’re very much not the norm.

So we have a huge number of children who will grow into adults that cannot work? What then?

Other than making the parents lives more tiring, I don’t think it actually matters much in the scheme of things. Parenting styles have virtually zero impact on how children turn out.

Agree @MrsWhattery if other peoples children were being unfair or dangerous I never stood back and watched it unfold either.
Many parents ignore their children in play areas whilst they push in, take toys away, throw things at other kids, push others etc and their parents seemed to be too scared to tell them off.
Mine are grown now and I’ve watched these kids grow too. Some turned out to be the school bullies or friendless or both. All of them grew with an obnoxious sense of entitlement.

Im not sure what you want me to say. PDA is a specific medical condition related to autism. Its not going to increase because parents of non autitic children decide to use gentle parenting badly. They will just be children who are parented badly.

I cant magic autism away because you dont like the fact that people with this condition often cant work or work in non traditional ways.

That's because you're mistaking gentle parenting for shit parenting.

I'm taking that stick off you so nobody gets hurt. I know you're sad about it but we're not allowed to hurt people.

That ⬆️ Would be gentle parenting. Keeping the boundary and making sure they understand it but not yelling at them, hurting or shaming them as a punishment. It's basically what a load of people do anyway but with a new label.

This.

I think some have taken gentle parenting label as part of their identity - and react very badly to people questioning it and demonise people who don't use the label.

I was meeting parents who used term when mine were little - the kids were avoided unless they worked out themselves how to behave- or in one case had new step parent who parented.

I agree you also find yourself doing parenting of other kids - defensive parenting (like defensive driving )- so your kids don't get hurt. Then couple of years into primary you wonder if you done them a massive disservice teaching them manners and how to behave before you see late primary teen year horrors and extreme behaviors categorised as normal.

Speaking to mainly mothers - and I saw girls and boy parented this way - seem to be a mix of overly strict childhoods or massive Mum guilt - one "friend" who tried every possible work combination p/t - flexi - SAHM- full time - and had guilt with all admitted she hated telling her DD off - she wanted fun times - she liked hanging out with us as I had boundaries and her DD behaved well round me and was a delight - but never wanted to put work in so her DD behaved well round her - she just moan about ruin outings and family time.

Ohh you will getmany people saying 'thats not gentle parenting ".
Ha ha , so true what you said that's unfortunately how the vast vast majority of gentle parenting goes.

I am on a gentle parenting fb group. I joined because gentle parenting sounds so good you know. The little thymes they spin. Just say 'johnyy we don't throw cars, I know you're upset but cars are not for throwing' keep the boundary jarajara. Reality is that's not how it plays out 98% of the time its like you said.
Permissive

Anyway the are hugggge on body autonomy.
Once a woman asked the following question..

"My daughter (3 years) know we keep the calpol in the bathroom. Whenever we go into the bathroom she point at the calpol and says that she needs it because her tummy hurts. I don't want to teach her that I don't trust her when it comes to her own body, so I always give it to her. But it's becoming increasingly more and more to try point that she asks everyday, sometimes multiple times a day.
Any advice?"

Yeah, stop giving her calpol!! Trusting a 3 year old that's clearly getting reminded of the lovely tasting fluid everytime she sees it?
Like how far do we take, 'trusting our kids'.
I was appalled. And everyone was like 'hard one, you don't want to teach her that you don't trust her, but maybe try things like a warm water bag and only if that doesn't work do calpol.'

WTH??

That's not gentle parenting. Gentle parenting is firmly placing a boundary and sticking to it while using natural consequence, treating the child with respect, no shouting etc.

So the natural consequence of the stick, would be removing the stick and now they have no stick to play with as they aren't playing safely with it.

You've described passive parenting, AKA shit parenting.

My youngest hates tooth brushing - no idea why but siblings do have sensory issues.

Not doing it wasn't going to wash - but trying to get them to participate and start taking responsibility in late childhood/teen years to get it done - timers - electric - red dye stuff - water picks - dentists talking to them - it's stressful and unpleasant and often despite all techniques comes down to it needs to be done - and we both standing here till it is when younger - and I'll remind you till you do it automatically and stand over you when I'm aware you've been lying about doing it - and you will do the red dye stuff - we all will so we can improve and you having a fit doesn't change that.

I don't think being kind to your children leads to teenagers carrying knives - quite the opposite, I have a 17 year old and he studies Politics, Economics and History, he's appalled by the immoral happenings of the world and I was pretty gentle with my approach to raising DC. However, I focused on being kind so would not tolerate hitting someone with a stick. Aggressive children aren't just a modern day outcome of middle class gentle parenting methods, when I look back to my own childhood around some very privileged children, often they attended private school, they were truly hideous. The main aim of boys appeared to be hurting nature and each other as much as they could, certainly with big sticks! The parents were upper middle class or even upper class. In contrast my huge London comprehensive school, akin to Grange Hill had some terrifying DC that carried knives because their Dad's did, they were physically chastised and definitely were not in receipt of Gentle parenting!

They're right though, it's not gentle parenting. Even if the majority of people who say they gentle parent actually practise permissive parenting, that still doesn't mean that gentle parenting when done effectively doesn't work.

Having your needs met doesn't mean you never suffer discomfort, I'm not sure where you got that idea from tbh.

My needs, other than the obvious physical ones, are love, affection, empathy, someone who listens to me and takes me seriously, the ability to put boundaries in place to do some things that are just for me. Those needs are met.

This. There's little point in seven thousand MN posters coming along and going "that's not gentle parenting, HTH". It doesn't deal with the issue, which is that far too many parents are permissive parenting under the guise of being gentle, and this has societal implications down the line.

No, this is a misconception. Sarah Ockwell-Smith is not the inventor of the term "gentle parenting". It existed for about 15 years before she wrote those books, gentle discipline and positive parenting for about 10-15 years before that, and the general concept of rejecting authoritarian parenting (which is the only thread I can find that ties it all together) has been written about since the early 1900s. It grew in popularity as part of the hippie movement in the 1960s, though has always been fringe. Now that research is starting to show that a lot of the practices used within these movements are in fact beneficial, there is a lot of overlap between what people call "gentle parenting" and general modern parenting advice.

And a lot of what is described as gentle parenting on the internet doesn't refer back to Sarah's work, in the way that for example RIE parenting resources refer back to Magda Gerber's work, or people referencing Montessori principles of education refer back to Maria Montessori's writing. Which would make sense because most of the concepts people are referencing predate Sarah Ockwell-Smith's books by several decades.

The first book I read which seemed to encapsulate the principles of "gentle parenting" to me (though I now recognise this is only my definition and wouldn't necessarily be shared with everyone using the term) was "How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk". That book was published in 1980. Sarah's mother may have read it herself.

Do people really think nobody was following the same principles before 2016??

Fucking hell about the calpol! That's completely insane! Do these people not realise that babies are born knowing nothing and they learn what we teach them? How is a 3yo going to know that she doesn't need calpol just because she likes the taste of it, and in fact medicines need to be restricted?

I was talking about children with PDA who cannot tolerate a single request/demand.

I dare say most children would refuse vaccinations if given the choice. Do ‘gentle’ parents who worry about ‘bodily autonomy’ just say, ‘All right, then, darling, you don’t have to have that nasty needle if you don’t want to.’
We went to the dentist once. Option was take the tooth out or antibiotics. I said ‘what will the antibiotics do?’ And dentist said ‘just stave it off for a while’. Ds (I think he was about 11 at the time) said ‘I don’t want them to take my tooth out’ and both dentist and assistant dramatically put down tools (like a film when someone is asked to put down a gun). Dentist then went over to the computer and started typing. Assistant moved away. Ds was looking at me like ‘what’s going on’ (I guess he’d expected an argument). So I said ‘what’s happening?’ And she said ‘I’m doing up the prescription’. I said ‘for afterwards?’ and she said ‘what?’and then said ‘your son refused treatment so I can’t go ahead’.
I said to ds ‘if you don’t get that tooth out you’ll be back here in the same pain in a few months or the dentist can take it out so easily now, it might be sore for a little while but then it’s gone and you won’t have the night you had last night again’ and he said ‘ok so!’ like it was nothing and dentist got so stressed and I had to talk her down. She finally did it but I had to sign something and they sat in front of him and kept saying to him ‘are you sure this is what you want’ (which two adults asking a child, it was really uncomfortable). I get they were under pressure but this is where we are now, in my time they’d at least have had a conversation with the child to let them know what their best option was

There’s nothing gentle about getting your eye poked out with a stick. It would literally drive me mad.

Authorative was presented asthe alternative to authoritarian when my dd was small, gentle is quite new terminology

You don't have to be authoritarian if you don't want to do gentle