HR departments see employees as the enemy

[Donke]

I have worked in several public sector orgs (NHS, civil service etc) and their ability to stonewall and gaslight is unbelievable. Why are they so convinced that they can do no wrong and that employees are stupid/dishonest/incompetent?

I am currently fighting with HR over my T&Cs, which should follow a locally agreed protocol. They are refusing to accept that it exists or that they have the skills to use it which makes no sense because every other trust in the region uses it. They will not open their minds to an outside pov. I have had similar before where they insisted on refusing to pay me sick pay. Why??

I work in HR, in a specialist area that is all about supporting employees to reach their goals. Some of this thread is absolute codswallap and has left me feeling really sad, after a fairly rubbish day anyway.

I go to work every day to make it a better place for everyone who works there. The role of HR is to enable the business to achieve its strategic goals. People are the most valuable asset a business has to do that.

Sometimes people aren’t in the right role, in the right organisation, and at that point it might be the role of HR to ensure that the business has someone better in that role.

Herdinggoats · Today 14:42

People think HR are there to look after staff. Bollocks. Never forget who pays their wages. They are there to keep the drones in line

So someone else pays your wages?!

I work in HR. Much of my colleagues' time is spent mopping up after incompetent managers who do not understand our policies, ignore advice, misinform their staff and then blame us when it falls apart.

Whatyoutalkingabouteh · Today 15:22

It’s actually simple if you do it properly. There are processes and evidence needed and in my experience anges do not keep records of conversations and poor performance therefore making it a huge risk for an employment tribunal. Do it properly and fairly and you can dismiss within a reasonable timeframe

Of course it is! It's crap managers who don't tackle issues early, and don't keep proper records so have no grounds to take action and then expect HR to work miracles when they finally come to us too late in the day to performance manage and potentially dismiss them before they have permanent rights!

My husband pushed back against poor working conditions and attempts to bring in what amounted to zero hours by stealth. HR or what I assume you refer to as ER responded with disciplinary procedures which were eventually abandoned because of their obviously groundless basis. However it was incredibly stressful at the time and shortly afterwards he had a serious of heart attacks from which he will never fully recover. He has always been, incredibly hardworking and productive and is not stupid, as your last comment would seem to imply.

CryptoFascist · Today 15:09

Justifiedcheese · Today 12:57

My experience is the opposite. No support whatever to a manager ( not me) trying to get rid of a really, really poor performer - we are talking years of dreadful standards).
Same here, HR forcing us managers to prop up really poorly performing employees. It seems close to impossible to actually dismiss anyone or even get as far as disciplinary action.

Your competence is in question here. HR is probably covering your arse and keeping it out of an IT!

I'm another who has worked in various organisations, public and private sector, and I also had a year long secondment to HR earlier in my career. Sadly, I do think you're absolutely right.

In my experience HR in the public sector are especially bad, in the main because the pay is so much lower and departments are so overstretched.

I have witnessed absolutely scandalous practices including deliberate 'mistakes' with dates, timescales, documents, addresses, all designed to make sure time runs out and staff are so worn down that they just give up.

Senior staff/directors turn a blind eye to it all because employment law is such a minefield that they haven't the confidence to challenge what goes on.

I agree that everyone should join a union. Good union reps are not scared to hold organisations and HR to account.

JennyLake · Today 18:15

My problem with HR is that they seem determined to do everything in their power to absolve themselves of any responsibility for HR matters and then expect line managers to do all the traditional HR activities using a self-service guidance tool that doesn’t work. And when you point out it doesn’t work, they shrug and ask if you have logged it as an issue with the helpdesk which is very well hidden in the depths of the corporate intranet. 9 times out of 10 they 3 weeks to investigate (against their 48 hour SLA) then come back to say they don’t know how to resolve it and can you raise another ticket if you still need an answer….thus ensuring as a line manager I spend most of my working day tied up in HR matters rather than delivery of my actual role. So yeah…I don’t love HR but I have never thought for a second that they are on the side of the worker!

You're another one that thinks HR should be doing your job as a manager!! Get people like you every day. HR are there to support and advise you to do your own bloody job!! Are you responsible for managing your staff, or do you think HR should be doing that!?

It's literally the HR team's job to protect the interests of the business and to try to prevent the company from being sued. Employees come and go, they're not paid to be on the employee's side. You have to be a certain type of person to work in HR.

Public sector ER specialist here. You've pretty much summed up my entire role.

It's bloody depressing to see yet another HR slamming thread. I bend over backwards to ensure people are treated fairly and compassionately, as does the rest of my team.

Yet when we're not listened too and it all goes wrong the manager will always fall back on "I'm only doing what HR told me to do." Except that isn't true and the manager just doesn't want to take responsibility for their decisions.

@Lucyccfc68 people are speaking from their own experience, as are you. This does not make them any more 'clueless' than you are.

CleanQueen123 · Today 20:07

StartupRepair · Today 19:52

I work in HR. Much of my colleagues' time is spent mopping up after incompetent managers who do not understand our policies, ignore advice, misinform their staff and then blame us when it falls apart.
Public sector ER specialist here. You've pretty much summed up my entire role.

It's bloody depressing to see yet another HR slamming thread. I bend over backwards to ensure people are treated fairly and compassionately, as does the rest of my team.

Yet when we're not listened too and it all goes wrong the manager will always fall back on "I'm only doing what HR told me to do." Except that isn't true and the manager just doesn't want to take responsibility for their decisions.

Same. I'm also not stupid, BA Hons, MSc, professionally qualified, yada yada yada.

@Millie890 interested to know how you define the type of person? My colleagues are all very different.

You’ve got to remember that in a lot of cases, preserving employees’ statutory/contractual rights is also protecting the employer from potentially expensive ET cases. It’s not one or the other.

I’ve come across a mix. The best HR Director I worked with genuinely cared for the staff and wasn’t afraid to tell the partners/CEO when they were in the wrong.

I’ve worked with others who are quite cold hearted and don’t massively care about individual people though.

My performance has always been excellent. I am competent and professional. But I will not put up with HR re-writing reality to suit themselves. Once they have decided on a particular policy/course of action they adopt a sort of institutional defensiveness against all challenge. People here who work in HR - are you open to employees suggesting that you might have got something wrong?

@Runnerinthenight same here. Degree, professional qualifications, looking at a Masters next.

My colleagues are diverse but all intelligent and highly competent. We're also all human beings and not afraid to call out managers for unfair or unethical behaviour.

It’s clear that most of you have no idea what HR are for. If you have issues then I’m sorry it’s your manager who should be your target.

@Donke of course, because as well as being a highly educated professional, I am also intelligent and willing to admit if I get it wrong!

@Donke if I'm wrong I'll absolutely hold my hands up.

However, I also have to spend my days dealing with people telling me I'm wrong when I signpost them to the relevant policy. Apparently it being written in black and white isn't good enough. I must be wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about because they don't like what the policy says and want a different answer.

@CleanQueen123 and then they try another member of the ER team to see if they can elicit a different response....!

And should your colleague give the same message but worded in a slightly different way they'll then be asked to confirm that the original advice was indeed incorrect!

Managers will ask HR to confirm black is blue if it better serves their purpose.

I have worked as an employee and never had an issue with HR (Local Authority, Education), however, I ran a small business with 6 staff members. I ended up signing up for an HR company due to difficulties with staff. They were brilliant, they tightened up everything legally for us, helped create staff handbook, contracts etc and offered advice on disciplinary issues.
Without a doubt, without them, we would have hit issues and possibly even a tribunal, however, the issues were resolved and we developed skills in dealing with future issues efficiently, lawfully and fairly.
I must add however, the staff we had the issue with probably didn't like them as they no longer were able to take the pee and were set very firm boundaries moving forward. Most of their previous 'issues' stopped swiftly and whilst they probably weren't happy they weren't able to continue on as before, lateness stopped, gossiping and bad-mouthing stopped, and any issues were recorded and resolved professionally and correctly.

They are not the enemy, it's only from moving from an employee to an employer did I fully understand the importance and real function of HR. If it wasn't for them our staffing issue would have turned out a nightmare and it would have seriously impacted our business. At the end of the day without a productive team that works well in the company, the company will be buggered. HR made sure that everyone knew where everyone stood and what the expectations were etc. and as a business owner I became better at managing my staff thanks to their guidance and expertise.

Funny how the HR people on this thread keep talking about policies. I am all too aware of our policies, I have made sure I am well versed in them.

I have clearly, and factually articulated how my direct report is in contravention of 4 articles. Still, what I get from HR is we need to show flexibility, can we ignore this bit etc.

It is outrageous. They dont want to deal with the consequences and are somehow annoyed that I am trying to.

Easier to keep problem people, eh?

Easier to keep problem people, eh?

Not in my experience. I’ve had more difficulty with line managers being reluctant to take appropriate action, or failing to raise issues in a timely matter then expecting HR colleagues to wave a magic wand.
All this thread continues to demonstrate is the inability of some posters to distinguish between their own localised issues and the failings or otherwise of an entire profession.
But we see this attitude time and again with teachers, doctors, doctors’ receptionists, solicitors, and of course Mothers-in-Law…..

Personally I'm quite happy to support managers to tackle the problem people within their teams. However, the outcome of that process does depend on the manager being willing and capable of taking the appropriate steps in a timely manner...

This is so so funny. You are a line MANAGER you are paid to MANAGE - that is part of your role. The cumbersome processes are another issue but people like you are the reason HR teams even have to exist!