What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

You have again tried to leverage a rare example to attempt the ‘women do it too’ appeal.

A) the % of female people who are directly dangerous to other female people is almost negligible compared to male people who are directly dangerous to female people. It is a ridiculous statement. No one is claiming to successfully remove ALL dangers to female people. They are wanting to remove as many dangers as possible to female people.

B) As has already been mentioned, a much higher proportion of female people can fight off another female person. This is hugely different compared to the number of female people who can fight off male people. Male people on average after reducing testosterone have a grip strength that is around 125% compared to female people. And a punch that is around 160% stronger than a female person.

So another false equivalence from
you.

Everyone in my neck of the woods thinks live and let live but it's just plain silly and very likely mental illness.

It's like hearing someone argue the earth is flat.

It is incredibly unnerving to be in a supposedly female only safe space where the intention is to discuss past trauma involving domestic violence, to see a person sitting there who is clearly male but with a feminine head band tied around their head (with a cute bow granted) and claiming to be a woman. I didn’t feel safe enough to speak and feel they should have had the courtesy to join a group for trans women. That’s what I would do, but hey I am a typical woman, putting other people’s feelings first.

All your screaming and frothing at the mouth about biology and sex mean nothing to me.

😂Is this how you approached science classes at school too? Thought the teacher was ‘screaming and frothing’ because they were explaining incontrovertible facts to you?

Gosh, the world must be tricky for you.

You’ve got quite a nerve too, telling us we’re just screaming and frothing when posters like @Helleofabore have explained with the patience of a saint every single facet of the GC argument.

Meanwhile, you have nothing. Nothing but groundless, childish accusations of hate. We see you.

Why is it always Rose West referenced in these shite comebacks 😂. There's Myra Hindley too y'know!

Is this how you approached science classes at school too? Thought the teacher was ‘screaming and frothing’ because they were explaining incontrovertible facts to you?

As a PP said, it's like flat earthism. So they probably were like this.

😂Is this how you approached science classes at school too? Thought the teacher was ‘screaming and frothing’ because they were explaining incontrovertible facts to you?

Probably.

Wonder how much pp influences young people with gender non truths in their job

I think most of the real world are catching up to the right side of the debate.

Wrong again. The tide is turning the other way as people realise the insidious implications of the extreme reaches of the trans movement. People are waking up (not you).

As for all this ‘we just have different ideologies’ nonsense from @StolenCookie - I’m afraid you don’t get to have a different ideology where women’s actual rights are concerned.

I mean, sure - if you want to believe the earth is flat or that the royal family are lizards, you’re welcome to your illogical beliefs. But you’re not welcome to try to make others live by those beliefs or to call people ‘hateful’ for preferring actual verifiable fact as the basis for their lives.

I suspect this attempt at a ‘we’ll just have to agree to differ’ approach is down to your absolute lack of actual points; you can’t dispute fact so you try to pretend both sides are about ‘ideology’ when in fact only your side is an ideology.

The pile on against StolenCookie is everything I hate about MN. She has an opinion, stop trying to change it. This is coming from someone who doesn't agree with her, by the way.

Her views don't stack up logically and people are pointing that out. Is anyone breaking guidelines? If so, report them. Otherwise they are free to respond as they like.

She's not being forced to engage.

It doesn’t stack up people are going to point that out

Initially some posters may have been trying to change that poster’s mind. However, I think now the majority are trying to counter the misinformation that stolen is posting.

Stolen has tried to use appeals of authority, that of working with vulnerable people as a claim to safeguarding. While directly and repeatedly showing they don’t understand the principles of risk used for safeguarding and vilifying those attempting to do so. I do think false claims, misrepresentation and misinformation should be addressed every time.

This basically. Keeping men however they identify and whatever they’re wearing out of women’s spaces is a basic part of safeguarding.

survsys have shown a third of the public think a TW is a woman who believes themselves to be male. It’s why we are always very clear that TW are men and honestly once you go through all the appeals to emotion & be kind and replace TW with man they look very very different.

My DD (16) who is probably autistic was talking to me about this yesterday. About 2 years ago, she thought she might be trans - this period lasted about 3 weeks. She said yesterday she was trying on different personalities for size and now thinks it was 'just embarrassing'.

I struggle with certain parts of the trans argument.
Firstly, if being trans is gender dysphoria, why isn't it being treated as other dysphorias and mental health support sought?
I raised the issue of women's spaces (I've worked in refuges etc.) and my concerns with my partner and his friends and was repeatedly told that I was a bigot and a Terf. My partner has now changed his mind and believes the whole trans issue to be cult like and largely nonsense.

His point is that if gender is societal and a person wears clothes associated with that stereotype that the person is giving in to the same societal nonsense.

The trans issue also erases gay and lesbians. A female can be attracted to women and be "butch" without simply being a man, same for gay men. Having stereotypical feminie traits doesn't make someone female.

A mum in my local children's group has been told that her son is trans (by the teacher) because he likes dressing up in dresses during playtime. He's five.

I do think a lot of this "non-binary", trans etc. is nonsense especially in school children. My friend's daughter announced that every person in her form at secondary school is "queer". Statistically it's impossible.

I think there are massive safeguarding issues and years from now there will be lots of stories of grooming and abuse that come out because people looked the other way and ignored red flags.

Oh come off it. Posters asking StolenCookie some basic questions about their 'ideology' is not a 'pile on'. What was noticeable is the complete evasiveness, deflection or outright ignoring by StolenCookie to those questions which in turn becomes very frustrating. A complete failure to address the very real concerns that many women have about some of the demands TRAs are making. Instead we get the predictable 'waaah you are all transphobes' and 'TWAW. That tactic does not work anymore, 'no debate' does not work anymore.

I need to add a sentence to A in this as it was late and I wasn’t as clear as I wanted to be.

A) the % of female people who are directly dangerous to other female people is almost negligible compared to male people who are directly dangerous to female people. It is a ridiculous statement. No one is claiming to successfully remove ALL dangers to female people. They are wanting to remove as many dangers as possible to female people. This means treating male people as having at least the same risk, with no special sub-groups.

That is until a special sub-group can be proven robustly, repeatedly and over time to have a risk level at the same level or lower than all female people.

You don’t strengthen safeguarding by lowering the standard of safeguarding principles for one sub-group based on emotional reasoning when the evidence shows that the sub-group has NO lower level of risk compared to the whole male UK population. There is no evidence at all that shows this. What evidence there is shows the opposite, and should be further studied.

However, even if the risk was a little lower, it is not the same risk as the risk carried by allowing all female people into the toilet. That is the comparator to be used.

Again, this is rational reasoning. It is not transphobia to exclude a sub group of males from situations where safeguarding is needed. Toilets are a situation where safeguarding principles still need to be applied despite some people thinking that it isn’t.

Safeguarding is weak or non-existent when it is applied by people who use their nice friends or family as a model for allowing a sub-group special access when the larger group is denied because of high risk. People advocating for that special sub group’s access are not adhering to strong safeguarding. It is the very opposite.

It is hugely concerning that someone with safeguarding responsibilities is arguing to weaken safeguarding in this way.

(the bold was the original and the not bold was the addition, obviously)

Exactly. The TRA side has created so much confusion by manipulating language. Transwomen are women, she/her pronouns, talking about 'gender' then seamlessly shifting to sex when it suits, then back again.

All of which is working to confound logical debate.

At its heart it's very simple. No one can change sex. Women's single sex spaces need to be protected. Thats the line.

A mum in my local children's group has been told that her son is trans (by the teacher) because he likes dressing up in dresses during playtime. He's five.

This is one of the biggest issues for me.

Gender non conforming children, who would otherwise grow up as healthy, well adjusted adults - maybe gay, maybe not - being 'transed' by people who don't have a solitary clue what they're doing.

Five year olds should be left to play with/wear what they want. Without anyone filling their heads with nonsense about this being a problem.

We keep going round in circles.

For trans people and supporters like me, biology and sex are irrelevant. You can be assigned female or male at birth and realise later on that it doesn’t fit with your gender identity.

Everyone trying to pin me down on what is a woman is also (as I stated previously) pointlessly shouting into a void. I don’t know what makes a woman. There isn’t a checklist. All I know is my own subjective experience of feeling I am in the correct body. That’s it. I don’t claim to know the particulars of that feeling that can be quantified to prove that I really am a woman. I don’t think it’s quantifiable. It’s ok to disagree on this.

The Rose West example I knew was a bit silly but my point still stands. If you are going to point to particular members of a group as proof of that group’s inherent dangerousness, I’m going to point to infamous female criminals who have committed atrocities to evidence the (in my mind) extremely straightforward and simple point that an entire group cannot effectively be punished for the actions of a particular member.

Blocking trans women from female spaces is using faulty logic (as shown above) to maintain an ideology (‘trans women are really men’).

I don’t agree with your logic and I don’t agree with your ideology.

Also - to the person who commented about my job - I never used my job as an appeal to authority or mentioned safeguarding. It was another poster who mentioned safeguarding in relation to me. It’s tiring how in these arguments people inevitably attribute points to me that I never made, to try to discredit me.

I said that in my job I see that young people are becoming more vocal about their experiences of being trans and gender non-binary. That’s not me pretending to be an authority on the issue. I’m just saying what I’ve observed first hand talking to a lot of children.

The tide is definitely turning. The next generation are unlikely to be more bigoted than ours. More and more people are questioning the status quo. I’m happy about this and hope each generation does a better job than the last of creating a safe and inclusive world for all people.

The only thing that makes a woman is being an adult human female with a body designed around the production of large gametes and the birthing of children even if that reproductive system doesn’t always work. Im infertile - im still a woman.

everything else is piss & wind

it’s frankly embarrassing that there are ppl who pretend that biological sex has no impact on every day life

Blocking trans women from female spaces is using faulty logic (as shown above) to maintain an ideology (‘trans women are really men’).

You don't understand the first thing about logic 😂

Blocking 'TW' - who are men - from women's single sex spaces is totally logical as 'TW' are men and cannot change sex.

It's perfectly simple. You know this. The digging you're doing here is ridiculous.