What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

My middle class work network is very woke.

My working class friends and family think it is dangerous and silly.

@OOBetty
"The trans community should campaign for trans spaces if they do not ‘feel comfortable’ in the spaces already provided and aligned with their biology."

Yes I agree. But I think the problem is that trans people are desperate to become 'fully' a man or woman - in sex as well as gender. And as all of us who acknowledge facts know, they can't ever be fully the opposite sex.

It seems strange to me that people who purport to be traumatised by being forced to live a lie (in a body they claim isn't right for them) are so determined not only to live a lie (pretending to be 'fully' the opposite sex after transitioning) but to force everyone else to be complicit in that lie.

Surely it would be far better to acknowledge and celebrate trans as a separate, but equal, category. With its own sports, toilets, etc etc.

Absolutely agree.
It really seems to be the only fare solution for all.

The view in my sport squad is that we would, and have, happily trained and changed alongside a trans woman (the woman in question has transitioned, it would be different to have a non-transitioned person in the communal shower) , but want to preserve female competition to those who didn't go through puberty as male. Outside of that, at work, socially, and so on, there's no issue at all, people should wear clothes and use names, in whatever way makes them comfortable.

What do you by "non transitioned"?

Sorry if I used a term that offended, it was not intentional. I mean someone who still has penis. There are no cubicles in our very-cramped showers and changing room, and they cant be fitted as we are already overcrowded due to the building having been built before women's participation in the sport was recognised. We do have a small lockable space that could be used by an individual to change, but there's no shower in it unfortunately.

The overwhelming majority of trans people who transition are happy with their decision and are able to live more fulfilling lives as a result.

People left to their eating disorders die.

Also - my network believe trans women are women, and that gender is distinct from sex. They don’t refer to trans women as ‘blokes’ or talk about their ‘dicks’. I’d welcome a trans woman into any changing room I was in.

Dismissing the pain and struggle of trans people as ‘a bit silly’ says a lot about your network, OP.

Sorry if I used a term that offended, it was not intentional. I mean someone who still has penis

The word you are skirting around is MAN.
Language is important to see the truth behind the bollocks. Quite literally the majority of these cases. As most men claiming to be women keep their tackle.

No man should be in a female only space.

I’d welcome a trans woman into any changing room I was in

Does that include all the fetishistic transvestites and AGP'S who are now included under the trans umbrella?

What about all the women that don't want men in their spaces?
Why are you putting male feelings above female reality?
Why are you happy making female safe spaces mixed sex putting women and girls at risk?

my network believe trans women are women, and that gender is distinct from sex

'Woman' isn't a gender. The only way a man could claim to have a woman gender is if every women behaved in a stereotypical 'woman' way. Which we don't because is a bunch if sexist bullshit, without which gender identity ideology falls apart.

As gender is distinct from sex, why should men with a 'gender identity' be allowed in women's single SEX spaces?

'Woman' isn't a gender. The only way a man could claim to have a woman gender is if every women behaved in a stereotypical 'woman' way. Which we don't because is a bunch if sexist bullshit, without which gender identity ideology falls apart.

This.

I’d welcome a trans woman into any changing room I was in.

So Isla Bryson, Barbie Khardashian, Katie Dolatowski ... you're welcoming them in with open arms? 😵‍💫

Just for people's information BK is about to be tried for rape/murder threats he's been making to women in limerick. That's after his time in a woman's prison there.

As gender is distinct from sex, why should men with a 'gender identity' be allowed in women's single SEX spaces?

Exactly. And this question is never answered.

It can't be about sex when it suits the argument and gender when that suits the argument.

Pick one and stick to it.

Would you like to provide us the evidence that states a person who medically transitions has improved mental health?

Because I can show you the study that tried to conclude this that had to retract that conclusion.

You statement need evidence to support it, otherwise it is you spreading harmful misinformation. Please link the peer reviewed studies or papers.

Mum thinks it's bonkers and bizarre, and gets up in arms any time it comes up in conversation. I doubt she's ever met, seen, or listened to anything a trans person has to say.
My generational network all seem to think "live and let live". That everyone has a right to live as their full and authentic selves. We feel zero threat towards our womanhood from trans women.

My generational network all seem to think "live and let live". That everyone has a right to live as their full and authentic selves. We feel zero threat towards our womanhood from trans women.

I suggest you read the thread

Also, I don't understand this point about authenticity. Trying to be treated as the sex you aren't seems to be the opposite of authenticity.

Do you think that a female rape victim having the choice of being examined by a female medical examiner is 'a threat towards her womanhood from transwomen'?

Because your phrasing here shows that you don't seem to understand what issues are being discussed by feminists.

Or perhaps you and your network lack the empathy towards traumatised female people that you seem to show for male people.

I think that when some people say 'authentic', they can only be talking about superficial presentation. What they don't do is the deeper thought as to what that means.

There is such a huge difference between a female person living in their body and getting on with life, and a male person demanding that they are living the life of a female person.

This is long, but I tried to articulate this this morning on another thread.

Material reality

The material reality of girls and women is that their only shared experience that can be labelled 'woman' or 'girl' is experiencing life with a body that fits in the reproductive category of human beings that is called 'female'. So, not just us as women and girls experiencing this directly, but also how the world interacts with us. This cannot change no matter how we conceptualise it as the material reality abides. We can change the label but it doesn't change the experience.

The same then applies to all male people. Male people can only ever experience their lives as being having a male sexed body, no matter when they started their puberty, no matter how slow that puberty was or whether that puberty was stopped. Still a male sexed body.

A male person can make all the body modifications to that male body, it will always be materially realistic in its state as a male body. Because it will fit the bimodality of human reproduction of having a body that was formed around the production of small gametes, regardless of whether that production ever happens.

A male person who makes body modifications experiences their life going forward from that point on as a 'male who has made body modifications'. That male person can then present a superficial outward appearance that emulates what they believe a female person would look like. The material reality here is that this male person can only ever present themselves to the world as what that male person has perceived a female person to be. ie. Their own personal conception of what female person 'is'. That is what society then interacts with. Therefore, even here this is not a true interaction of how society interacts with female people. This is just society interacting with a specific male individual's perception of being female.

Not only is this an approximation of being female that is derived from a male individual perspective. It is one that is only ever from the male perspective.

Because that male person has also interacted with the world as a male from birth. From the moment of their birth they have perceived the world and shaped it from the perspective of having a male body. In a society that is shaped by men still, then that will always be a world where that male person's views have been shaped by the power and entitlement that a male person has. Because society reflects this in nearly all interactions.

No matter then how a male person perceives a female person's life and emulates that, it is not the life of a female human.

Therefore it is not authentic to claim that they are 'women' at all.

It is the opposite.

Have a couple of trans folks I work with. No big deal really. Have never seen any in the toilets but ours are floor to ceiling doors with proper walls in between (I think this is now advised anyway?), so would not really bother me and have never heard of it being a concern of anyone else I work or socialise with.

Have you ever had the need to find a toilet where you had a pram that was full of shopping that meant you couldn't close those 'floor to ceiling' doors ? And do you understand the needs of a woman who has little bladder control or worse after being pregnant?

Or do you think that those women should just hold on to find the rare toilet that they can access or that they should use a disabled toilet when a disabled person might also need it just as urgently?

I get that you probably have never thought about it, but there are many issues that women deal with where they require additional privacy outside of those 'floor to ceiling' cubicles that you have declared all that is needed. What happens then?

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

Copied from the review:

Research Findings

1. The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.

1. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

1. The positive impact of gender transition on transgender well-being has grown considerably in recent years, as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.

1. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

Also: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/

Which concludes: This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period, which is important given mental health disparities experienced by this population, particularly the high levels of self-harm and suicide.

This was found from 10 seconds of googling. You’re free to do your own research if you wish.

Also - to the poster who asked if I’d welcome specific trans people who have committed crimes into my changing room. The answer is: not those particular individuals, no. It’s really simple. Some men murder. Some women murder. Some people rape. Some people are violent. Do I want to be stuck in a room with those specific individuals? Nope. Do I tar an entire group with the actions of a few? Nope.

Trans women are welcome in my changing rooms.

Yes, have you read these?

I have.

These studies are pre 2017 and therefore did not really capture a true snapshot of what is currently effecting young female transitioners in the UK, or indeed anywhere in the world.

Therefore most of them relate to previous treatment protocols and are not really relevant to the current cohort of early transitioners. That being that since most of those patients studied, the exponential increase in ADOLESCENT FEMALE people seeking to transition. Not only that but there has been a significant change in the treatment protocols around this issue.

Or perhaps you are completely unaware of that since you didn't think about what you actually posted.

So, again. Please don't spread misinformation. Please read what you post and understand whether it is directly applicable to the current situation or not.

For instance here is recent study that shows this in a completely different light.

The discredited study where a Yale researcher tried to convince the world that gender treatments improve mental health of transitioners.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

A major correction has been issued by the American Journal of Psychiatry. The authors and editors of an October 2019 study, titled “Reduction in mental health treatment utilization among transgender individuals after gender-affirming surgeries: a total population study,” have retracted its primary conclusion. Letters to the editor by twelve authors, including ourselves, led to a reanalysis of the data and a corrected conclusion stating that in fact the data showed no improvement after surgical treatment. The following is the background to our published letter and a summary of points of the critical analysis of the study.

This.

Dress as you please but facts are facts, you cannot change biological sex or dna.

The people who want to push women aside and take over their sports, safe places etc are the me, me, me, stamp legs type which I think sane logical people ignore.

Here is a documentary done by a Dutch team and they discussed a re-review of the information the UK has on their treaties of 12-15 year olds.

A documentary on the Dutch Protocol

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

Can you please provide the evidence that the risk of male people with a trans identity committing a sex offence is lower than the rest of the male UK population for safeguarding.

Because if you cannot provide this evidence, all you have is your own 'feelings' on this.

What is the specific differences between male people who have transitioned and all other male people that means that they in particular can come into a female single sex space?

Please. Put the evidence up that convinced you that women and girls should accept some male people into their single sex spaces.