to think this isn't right? mother convicted if manslaughter

[greenacrylicpaint]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68223118

A jury has found a Michigan mother guilty of involuntary manslaughter for failing to stop her son from carrying out a deadly school shooting.

by all means, she didn't come across as mother of the year, but come on.
what sentence will the father get?
an absent father in a similar case?

oh america

I think if you look at it from the perspective of could they have prevented it, then most of their actions/inaction show they could.
They could not have bought him a gun, without the gun he couldn't shoot classmates.
They could have bought a gun but kept it secured, still room for error but less so.
They could have sought MH support for their Son when it became apparent he needed it.
They could have worked with the school and removed him on the day of the shooting, checked where the gun was and secured it, sought MH crisis support for their Son that the school was suggesting.

Instead they bought him a gun, didn't bother to keep it secure, didn't get the much needed MH support their Son needed, and refused to work with the school or remove their child when concerns were raised.

If she’d behaved as a mother should then this probably would never have happened. I can see why they went after her.

Where have you got she wasn’t engaged with parenting?

why do you think she shouldn’t hold responsibility but think ‘stepping up’ is the fathers responsibility. It’s both their responsibility.

i don’t understand why you seem to think she should hold no responsibility it all. But the father should. Again, it’s a shared responsibility.

We have no idea of what evidence the trial of the father will produce. If it’s the same evidence chances are he will also be convicted.

Why are you concerned of a conviction like that? Assuming you are in the US, don’t buy your child a gun. Speak to the authorities if you think he is a risk of hurting others. Seek help for his mental health.

Again, they haven’t been convicted because their son was a school shooter. They have been convicted of their part in the murders.

In a burglar, even when the getaway driver does nothing but sit in the car, said driver will also be held responsible for murder if one of his cohorts shoots and kills someone during the burglary. Felony Murder rule.

Here, a grossly negligent set of parents armed their neglected, mentally unwell minor child, a child who told them he needed help and was hearing voices, with a gun. And then left him to it. Even when the school wanted them to take him home and get him help due to his behaviour and violent drawings acknowledging the problematic voices and mental unwellness.

They are culpable. And I hope his father is convicted of the same crime.

This.

She's accountable.

I think it’s surprisingly easy to avoid a manslaughter charge in these circumstances - don’t buy your underage son with mental health issues a gun for starters.

did the firearms retailer do their due diligence when selling this firearm? Ask who it was for, Carry out MH checks/whatever the dbs equivalent is on the family?

if not why not? I would say that’s the bare minimum. If not shouldn’t they be held accountable?

or can you literally walk into a Walmart and buy a firearm and ammo no questions asked? In which case I would say we’re back to the law also being responsible.

if guns can be sold no questions asked, why can’t the mum give a gun no questions asked?

*not saying she should, but either there are conditions around gun ownership or not. Whoever is selling or giving these weapons.

If they had gun control she wouldn’t have been able to buy the gun.

he wouldn’t have had the gun to kill 4 peopl.

why stop at her, why not take it all the way back to restricting access by law?

She was charged with involuntary manslaughter through criminal negligence. That is where her failure to act when there was a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, has led to the deaths of others.

It was proven that they knew their son was a risk and both (a) denied him the healthcare he requested, (b) provided him with the tools to carry out a criminal act and (c) were aware there was a likelihood he was planning to commit this act.

If you knew your neighbour was unstable and fantasing about killing his colleagues you would know fine well that giving him your gun makes you accountable.

The charges reflect the crime.

They should have gun control. That goes without saying.

It doesn't change the fact that he's a child that she's legally responsible for and she bought him a lethal weapon.

There are conditions. One of the conditions is that a 15 year old can not buy a gun. An adult can not purchase a gun for a minor. There is some leeway for hunting equipment used under the guidance of an adult.

This, however, was an automatic pistol. Not a hunting rifle. There’s also responsibility for adults to secure guns safely. There’s no evidence that whoever sold the gun was ever given an indication they acted outside the law or knew the gun was for a minor. Whilst I don’t agree with the guns laws in the US, the people acting illegally were the parents. The gun was sold legally.

Being able to buy a gun doesn’t mean it’s then legal to hand over a gun to a minor. In the Uk, as an adult, I can buy alcohol. I can get in trouble for buying a minor alcohol, especially if that leads to incident where someone is harmed.

Regarding her part in this, she knew he had free access to a gun. She knew when she attended the meeting at school that her son had access to a gun and had been drawing out a school shooting. She also refused to take him home and get him help. She also saw the drawings and declined to tell the school there was a possibility of him carrying a gun.

The school didn’t search his backpack, but that appears to be a grey area of wether they should or could do that.

She did see things coming. Because when she heard there had been shots fired at the school, she text her son and told him not to do it. How many parents would jump to their son being the source of the gunshots, if there’s been no red flags.

She immediately knew it was him. If there was an incident at my son’s school, not a chance would I jump to the conclusion he caused it. My first thought would be concern for his safety.

There are plenty of threads all for holding dog owners accountable for the actions of their animals in order to promote public safety.
They're threads that I agree with.

I see no reason why parents shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of their offspring in order to promote public safety.

My own conclusion is that if she had not gotten him the gun he would simply have gotten it elsewhere, or done his crime in the UK way with a knife.

@Honeychickpea ok so if he got the gun from someone else they should be prosecuted! But it happened to be his parents.

Because it’s relevant to the discussion.

Are you following the discussion?

This. She knew exactly well head was off the rails. She chose to ignore all his issues and innocent people are dead and families ruined. She deserves to be in prison

Agreed. More prosecution of cases like these maybe people will be less willing to not step in or buy a kid a gun

Yes, she bloody deserves manslaughter and so does her DH!

Among other things:

They ignored her son's MH issues even though he'd texted 'help me' and had told them he was hearing voices/having bad thoughts

They bought him the gun as a Christmas present even though they were aware he was not mentally well

She lied about where the gun was on the day of the shooting. She told the school it was in her possession. Video shows that it was already been taken to the school and hidden

The gun was NOT locked away per state gun regulations

When he was discovered googling 'how to buy ammo' by a teacher the mother's response was to text him "I'm not mad. Next time try not to get caught lol"

They refused to take him home from school on the day of the shooting after he drew images of guns, blood, and words indicating he was contemplating violence

If this had been a situation of the parents serving their teen alcohol and then letting him drive stinking drunk resulting in him killing someone, would you say the parents shouldn't bear responsibility? His parents knew he was a danger and did nothing.

C'mon people, on one hand some in the UK criticize the US (rightly) for our gun problem. Now when something finally starts to get done about school shootings, you criticize that!

*My own conclusion is that if she had not gotten him the gun he would simply have gotten it elsewhere, or done his crime in the UK way with a knife.
This isn't a case of a kid gone bad and know one know why.
The kid is 15. It is illegal in Michigan to buy a minor a gun unless its under certain circumstances such as shooting wildlife. She bought him a semi automatic hand gun. You dint shoot animals with them

She usinged to access mh services on childs behalf when she and everyone else knew there was something badly wrong.
The child sent messages to her saying he was seeing things. He was known to tourture animals and had drawn pictures of shootings.
Come on , the clues that is was a disaster waiting to happen are right there.
IMO, it may not have been preventable and the kid could have gone rogue at any point but she didn't do anything to minimise the chances and by buying a semi automatic she increased the odds of an unhappy ending.

The mother wasn't in an impossible position at all... at not one point dud she need to buy her child a gun. She deserves everything she gets.

I am indeed, thanks for asking.

What I was asking, was why you thought it relevant? I’ve asked twice now and you seem unable or unwilling to say. Not that you need to, of course, but it seems rather silly to post and then not be willing to elaborate.

My own conclusion is that if she had not gotten him the gun he would simply have gotten it elsewhere, or done his crime in the UK way with a knife.

And then she would not have been prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter.

But she did and she was.

You are just doing what some musnetters do. The "poor women, we are never at fault". Providing, orr letting the father provide, this child with gun is absolutely not in that universe. We make decisions, sometimes bad ones, we have brains, she should have used hers. It's absolutely right the parents stand trial for this.
If the evidence supports what she is saying about her husband buying the gun, he will get the guilty verdict.

What’s silly is you not following the discussion and expecting to be spoon fed a summary.

OP asked what sentence will the father get.

I said that the mother told the jury that the husband bought the gun and I hope it’s confirmed in HIS trial who gave the son the gun.

Seriously, quit the arrogant questions when you can’t follow a basic exchange.

What's your point? You're being a bit ridiculous. Everything that's of relevance is worth mentioning. Misinformation is always worth correcting.