Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

Very well said

I am a midwife. I am on my way to work on the labour ward. It's 06:15 am SUNDAY. I will be at work till 8 pm. Long treck home as we can't afford a car, even the cheapest banger (not with our mortgage costs). So it's Sunday public transport for me, both ways. Today I will be looking after a woman in labour. I will be supported by Senior House Officer, Registrar and Senior Registrar - all Junior Doctors in NHS bizarre terminology. The Consultant will lead the morning ward round and then will go on call. S/he will arrive within 30 minutes if there is a dire emergency the 3 Junior Doctors will decades of experience between them can't cope. Consultants are expensive and used sparingly. The bulk of NHS doctors' workforce are Junior Doctors, they are the ones striking. They don't earn anywhere the figure you quote. During the last strike our Consultants turned up to cover every position. I am rooting for my colleagues. I am a good midwife however I can't do Caesareans and I would rather have enough experienced doctors around.
As for your argument that the Council staff endured 3 years without pay rises and nobody left - my argument is the pay and conditions weren't bad enough so people stayed. The doctors and nurses and midwives are leaving. Enough is enough

Further to the earlier message... I trust my doctor colleagues infinitely more than any figure in the Government. When there was a joint Junior Doctors and Consultants strike last year we still had our labour ward doctor rota covered. They are sensible people. The fault is with the Government. Too many MPs invested into the shares of private health care providers. They thought it would be easy to demolish NHS. However we chose to stay put and fight for the common good. As stupid as we are on our wages

@Absolutely45
”So far you've failed to explain why you think a Doctor is worth 30% less now than in 2010.”

2008-2010 was the very peak of real time earnings by doctors. Why do you think they should earn more now than they were in 1990?

Why choose 1990?

Patient satisfaction was at an all time high in 2010. I suspect having a happy workforce contributed to that.

Real Time earnings going up and down over time, pay freezes, then eased.

Anyone inc both of us can pick a year and weave a narrative around it but the bottom line is Doctors and other AHPs are leaving the NHS, morale is rock bottom.
So we either want an NHS and a feed of junior Doctors into consultant positions or we don't.

You and others see keeping pay down as a means to dismantle the NHS, its the only explanation for Sunaks lack of action over the NHS strikes.

Why do you think they should earn less than they did in 2010?

Op, you're acting as though there's not enough money. There is. There's enough money to pay a 27 year old woman 40k per year for life to sit in the HoL. There's money to pay Lord Mone enough for a yacht. Even when she didn't actually do the job.

The NHS is under funded because of Tory ideology. When you can no longer access a Dr but you can access a PA (because they are loads cheaper) and you have a myriad of health problems that mean you don't fit into an algorithm, then you'll notice what you've voted for.

Oh and MPs get paid 88k to work 9 months per year by the way. They can do another full time job alongside their commitments and can apparently go to Australia in the jungle and be completely uncontactable and still be paid.

Like a few others, you have misquoted me by saying I "you hate the idea of the NHS."

Nowhere have I said that and until you accept that, I will ignore the rest of your post.

Mismanagement is the key and I've said that many times

I've also said the docs strike for another 5 days is for pay and nothing else. The evidence, tens of thousands of patients will yet again have their appointments cancelled.

Earlier in the thread I posted a link from the Guardian I believe it showed the number of cancelled appointments due to strike action ie before the new 5 day strikes - 1.37 million cancelled appointments

Thank you
You are entitled to feel like that but the facts remain the NHS has a decent amount of money that is mismanaged as stated in one of my previous posts.

NHS needs streamlining and many are aware of that. Procurement is a big issue.

I've also said the docs strike for another 5 days is for pay and nothing else. The evidence, tens of thousands of patients will yet again have their appointments cancelled.

Cancelled appointments aren't evidence that the strikes are for money. You're getting beyond ridiculous now.

But I will give you this: you've perfected the fine art of filtering and distilling information so that you only hear what you want to hear. Go back and look at that tins of beans graphic again - maybe understanding what inflation means will help a little bit.

To all the doctors & nurses on this thread:

I was going to send a thank you note anyway but after reading all the crap on this thread and another, I'm going to make it a bloody big thank you card of support & massive box of chocolates.

Recently treated as an emergency in A&E and the care couldn't have been better - no complaints from me and full support to all of you.

"Don't let the bastards grind you down."

Also @DistinguishedSocialCommenator , you stating something does not make it a fact. You can test that approach by stating 'I have just won the Lottery' and then seeing whether it's true.

As Gove is spouting the blame the strikes nonsense on tv this morning, a good time to post this graph again

So the 1.37 million appointments that have already been cancelled due to strikes and tens of thousands of other appointments that will be cancelled during the next 5 day docs strike are helping patients? How is it helping them/patients that have already waiting for a long time?

This thread is clear: I have nothing against our NHS, the majority of whom do a great job. I blame procurement practices and NHS management needs to revisit streaming services

The main of this thread is clear in my OP, IE NHS strikes should be banned with a several-month notice. Our police officers and armed personnel are on a no-strike agreement and manage relatively well with their independent pay bodies, so why not the NHS as it a service we cannot do without? Then as per my OP, have an independent pay review body set up one like our MPs enjoy. This is sensible and it will stop millions of appointments from being cancelled and in turn adding to the massive waiting lists.

When you take the basic pay of what the hospitals call "junior doctors" and "senior doctors" they pay when compared to average wages is really good, especially for the senior doctors - and yes they deserve it.

I thank all front-line NHS staff for doing a great job but please consider a no-strike agreement and a pay body like that of our MP's.

All you've got is the same things repeated over and over and over. It feels a bit like talking to an AI - without the I.

If you want things to get better in the NHS, the government needs to fund and staff it properly. Right now, they won't. Strikes are a last resort, but they are necessary to make recalcitrant employers do what is right - for everyone.

You've also seen the graphics on the % of appointments lost through strikes compared to the % lost to ther factors. The evidence is staring you in the face, you are just refusing to see it. None so blind and all that.

So in terms of your request to consider strike bans: No, no, no.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator

I thank all front-line NHS staff for doing a great job but please consider a no-strike agreement and a pay body like that of our MP's

You've spent pages ranting about how awful they are for striking and how they must be be allowed to, while also believing the government is going to award them the same pay system as MPs enjoy.

Not going to happen. Look at the track record of the conservatives since they got into power.

Consequently, your posts come across like fantasy.

The only way to support better pay & conditions for NHS medical staff and to have a functioning NHS again is through strike support & voting.

Which is the only way we've achieved any employment and civil rights throughout history.

They do have a pay review body - the DDRB - although the Government control who sits on the Board, sets the terms of reference & parameters and isn't obliged to implement its recommendations.
Trust in the process has been eroded.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/staggering-figures-show-dramatic-nhs-28603138

"It seems like the government has stopped caring about it, but it is unacceptable both for the dignity of the patients and also because the risk of someone deteriorating while waiting to be seen means they are more likely to die."

Teachers also have an independent pay review body but basically the government tells it what to recommend.

Which of course works perfectly with the MPs' review body - 'Give us loadsa money' - 'Yes, boss'.

The system is broken. Pay review bodies need to be fully independent, governments need to be legally bound to abide by what they say. That isn't what we have now. So we get strikes.

Like a few others, you have misquoted me by saying I "you hate the idea of the NHS"

How can i accept you don't when you use language like "you lot" to describe NHS staff?

You are entitled to feel like that but the facts remain the NHS has a decent amount of money that is mismanaged as stated in one of my previous posts

Where is your evidence the NHS is mismanaged? thats just your opinion, independent research (KingsFund) says compared to other countries health systems, the NHS is remarkably efficient.
The problem it has is that on a per capita basis, the Govt spends less on health than almost all other EU countries and below average in the OECD 20.

I thank all front-line NHS staff for doing a great job but please consider a no-strike agreement and a pay body like that of our MP's

Weasily words. You don't mean that at all, if you did, you'd support the Doc's strike.
Doc's have offered to postpone strike action in return for more talks.... this Tory Govt has refused, where is your condemnation of this?

Hi there it's that pesky midwife again. Started work today (Sunday) at 7:30 am. Went on my lunch break at 17:15 (that's almost 10 hours without a tea break). Just finishing my break now (will finish at 20:00). Got incensed about NHS procurement and mismanagement practices. Did a quick Google search, see the link https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/09/uk-wastes-billions-defence-firms-investors-taxpayer-weapons