Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

I think they should be able to strike and should be paid more BUT it makes me angry every time people try to say they are striking about patient safety and conditions for patients. That is not really accurate. If they were offered a 25% pay rise they would be back to work as normal.

I think at least he honest about why you are striking.

Which I think is well deserved. Actually they should be paid more than that. I've spent a lot of time in hospital and come across some absolutely fantastic doctors and nurses who should be paid fairly for their skills.

@realdays you're missing the point. They're striking because their pay has fallen behind, but they're also striking because the NHS can't recruit enough doctors - because they are leaving in droves due to low pay and terrible conditions. The low pay is a causative factor in the terrible conditions, the two are inextricably linked. The aim is to make the NHS an attractive employer again so that it can recruit and retain good doctors and other clinical staff instead of losing them to the private sector or to the US, Aus and NZ.

You can only legally strike over pay and contract conditions. But can negotiate using anything.

The 35% real terms wage reduction is a big stick to try and leverage some movement on pay, but also reforms to things like pensions reform, ddrb reform, commitment to at least inflationary pay rises, paying for exam fees, writing off student loans... etc - these will all encourage more people into the profession.

@realdays patient safety and doctor pay are connected though! At the moment doctors are exhausting themselves having to work overtime to make ends meet. We need refreshed and alert doctors and the current situation doesn't allow this.

Let me know if I'm on the right track with my thought process.

So if pay was increased, this would attract more doctors and would hopefully prevent them from leaving the NHS. Then, there would be more doctors to ease the burden on the current staff. There would also be enough healthcare professionals to possibly open new wards and reduce waiting times for patients.

I am a cancer patient currently receiving treatment from the amazing NHS. They saved my life 12 years ago when i was first diagnosed and now it has returned they are saving it again I wholeheartedly support the drs right to strike for better pay and conditions. I have had people say to me "Well they chose to go into a caring profession " which enrages me. Just because you chose a caring profession shouldn't mean you can be treated badly, be paid buttons, told you can't strike and laying down your right to ask for fairer conditions.

Well said, totally agree.

Wishing you all the luck in the world for your continuing treatment

@Sunshine322 Any hours in excess of 15 minutes over a shift can be claimed as toil in my trust and if not taken within 3 months is paid as overtime. I don’t know about other trusts

It massively depends. This is the party line, but in my (slightly admin/part clinical) AHP type role this is always signed off, whereas DH is a nurse and it's just not in the culture to claim TOIL. He regularly goes in half an hour early and leaves 30-60 minutes late. Before COVID his SCN would every so often send him home early and give him an unofficial half day, to at least partly offset the unpaid hours. That doesn't happen any more, they're constantly short staffed. We work in the same trust. So it probably depends on role as well as trust.

@24hrcarer you've nailed it. We also need to work on the other side of it, which is improving general health by reducing poverty and inequality, but that's the NHS side. I remember the days when the competition for roles like mine was fierce. Now you're lucky if you get one applicant who meets the criteria and is employable. When I got my current job last year, it had been advertised three times already with no results, and I only applied because they were doing on the day interviews in a shopping centre. I was there to get a pair of hiking boots, not a job. (I absolutely love, love love this job!)

Thank you so much

@Schlappe yes, they do get paid if the are rostad to work more (not at any 'overtime' rate, unless after 9pm or before 6am), but not if it's just because the ward is hideously understaffed and they've stayed late as it's not safe. They get no say in their rota and in some areas can't take days off if on certain shifts. Lots of nights too.

It's so simple. Pay more, treat better, more stay. More stay, more patients treated, less waiting times. I might make a picture book to help explain for the hard of thinking.

Off to see my own little doctor. Yes, I do have skin in this game. It's also my job to support students to become doctors, which at the moment is not easy. Lots seeing what's going on and choosing something else. How v v sad that a once loved and respected professional is now seen as too much of a mess to want to join.

@Bbq1 all the very very best. ❤️

I work as a midwife on chronically understaffed labour ward. Google up the latest Guardian investigation into our work conditions. We regularly go without a break for 12.5-13 hours through the night and day shifts to provide labouring women with care. Is it safe? Every report into maternity and nursing scandals revealed short staffing at the core behind poor outcomes. Even though the majority of the press and BBC chose to focus on something else. Why wouldn't you read the original reports, they are freely available online? Lots of my midwifery colleagues left, they couldn't cope anymore, either mentally or physically. I get an endless stream of texts from my Trust begging midwives and nurses to cover a particular shift in a particular ward. I used to do overtime, I stopped. I can't do anymore, I would rather go without extra pay. We have a new Matron every year. Part of her job is to smooth out gaps in the rota. They are doing what they can however 3 left in the last 3 years. The conditions are the same in every Trust in my large metropolitan area. Money isn't everything to everyone. However I suspect some midwives could be coaxed to work part time if they could survive on part time wages. I am 1000 % behind my doctor colleagues strikes. I am holding out for Labour government. Our conditions are intolerable and lots of healthcare professionals are leaving NHS because they can no longer cope. The doctors deserve all the praise in the world for sticking out for ordinary people. Who do you trust more- the doctor you saw last or this Government? Don't let right-wing press or some bizarre mumsnet comments destroy our right to decent health care.

"I'm waiting for a Labour Government..."

What is their plan to reduce waiting lists, or is it secret inc how they will fund that?

A couple of posters have said what I've said along in this long thread, ie doctors, and senior docs claiming they are striking for the safety of patients and pay.

If they are striking for their patients, how will another 5 day strike help thousands of their patients who will have their appointments cancelled and most likely delayed by weeks?

Because the alternative to striking to descend into Mid Staffordshire horror on the nationwide scale. Read the report. The Trust was pursuing £10 million savings and the wards were left dangerously understaffed

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator do you really not understand ? I'll try again.

Better pay and conditions (striking only way to secure these as government bit slow to catch on), less staff leave, better conditions for staff, improving patient safety and cutting waiting times.

Picture book might be a best seller !

Strikes have now cost over double what it would have cost to settle. Magic money tree seems to be there if needed.

@Kosenrufugirl midwives are awesome. Saved mine and my baby's life. Maybe it's why she's heading to O&G. Thank you to you and your colleagues ❤️.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator can you really not see that by improving working conditions and pay, more doctors will want to stay and therefore fewer operations will be cancelled? This is about short term pain for long term gain, and short termism is what's done the NHS in under this government.

Labour's plans are on their website. Google is your friend here, go do some independent reading instead of demanding to be spoonfed.

The fact that you got so muddled up earlier about which grade of a doctor counts as a junior doctor (answer- everyone except Consultant) makes me suspect you DON'T have doctors in your family and the rest of your post should be read with this in mind. Your description of doctors' pay doesn't match my NHS experience

Maybe @DistinguishedSocialCommenator is Rishi, or Victoria. Who also don't seem able to grasp quite a simple conundrum.

Doctors will not stop until this is settled. Victoria 'I'll be back around the table in 20 minutes' and 'there is a better offer' seems to have lied on both counts. Took 20 days and no new offer was even up for discussion. BMA offered to hold off on strikes to continue negotiations if mandate was extended 4 weeks, lovely Vicky said no. One side seems to have a warped idea of what is 'reasonable'.

Meanwhile ....

Stay and be treated like crap, underpaid and overworked. Or go where they want and respect you.

Thank you to the vast majority on this discussion that can see right through the present government’s smoke and mirrors rhetoric. We see you Emperor Sunak,
in your designer fig leaf.

NHS workers make a formidable team, working in conditions way beyond what most people can imagine - but you feel their first hand knowledge and dedication does not deserve a voice O.P ? Or the only means of addressing of addressing this self serving government that draws attention to what has happened to the NHS since they have been in charge?
No, the Government have only been interested in stunts like showcasing the NHS in the 2012 Olympics - not actually caring about the people who work for it.

I am the mother of a Junior Doctor and have seen and heard first hand all the unmentioned factors that continually make their lives unsustainable.

We need a listening Government, that acts for the people of this country and cares about them. Not one that only cares about themselves and their grubby cronies.

@Fifiesta ditto. Sunak forgot one thing. Those junior doctors have mothers (& dads, but this is mumsnet). And we will fight for our kids when we see unfairness. I'm the bane of our v conservative MPs life at the moment, as he is tying himself in knots trying to answer my question as why he thinks £20 is an unfair wage. 5 letters and he's yet to answer. Lots of waffle though.

It's incredibly heartening to see how many people on here are not falling for the government line of putting the blame on the striking doctors, as put forward by OP. There's a lot of activity going on on MN right now that demands constant vigilance and the presentation of facts. You'd almost think it was an election year - but let's keep up the good work.