Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

Whats the point of having talks with a group of people where their demands are entrenched?

You mean our government here, don't you?

It's been said many times and you aren't listening, but this isn't about incomes. UK strike laws say that it has to be, but it isn't. It's about not being able to fill posts. It's about having to advertise medical posts, 3,4,5 times before being able to fill them, at a massive cost to the NHS. It's about the government refusing to make working in the NHS sustainable and desirable - if they did, the NHS would save £££ on locums and agency staff, who cost at least twice as much and in many cases more. Why can you not see the false economy here? You save by investing, not by taking away the right to strike.

@24hrCarer respect to you for going back, reading the thread and changing your mind in the face of the evidence. OP could learn a lot from you.

The idea of sending patients to Scandinavia is ludicrous.
No country has huge free capacity, just some countries are in less shit then the NHS is now.
Have you noticed that the Scandinavian countries altogether has about 1/3 of the population of England? Offloading would kill them. The UK Brexited, so there is no reason to spill the UK problems onto EU countries as well.

@pointythings Thank you and apologies for commenting before reading the whole thread.

There are so many posts so I can't remember but do you work in the field? I was shocked to read that doctors and nurses are doing the jobs of 2/3 people. I can't even imagine the stress that entails.

Looks like you are the one that is "confused"

Junior docs went on those long strikes. NOW, senior docs going on strike, yes?

In conclusion, the starting grade of junior docs a lot lower than senior docs, fact.

Junior docs peak pay a lot lower than senior doctors, fact

Confirmed, you are confused, not me.

Many thanks, hence this thread.

As I said, police and armed forces are not allowed to strike, so why not NHS staff?

I've clearly outlined a pay body in my OP to aid NHS pay claims IE have the same pay body MP's enjoy.

In an ideal world, every worker would get the money they wanted and people would not be ill, sadly we are far away from that, so the next best solution, no strike rule is a must as per my OP

@24hrCarer I'm not clinical. I'm currently admin, have done research support and data support. In my current role I'm closest to the clinical staff because one of the things I do is handle the documentation of sickness/absence. And it's horrific to see how many people are ill, how many people end up needing to leave because of long term illness, how many are still getting Covid and how many parts of the rosters are filled with expensive bank and agency staff. I also support recruitment, so I see at first hand how few applicants there are for the posts that go out (and even fewer of those are suitable!). I've been in the NHS for 24 years and I have never seen it this bad.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator you may not have noticed that the poster you quoted has now read the full thread and has changed her mind. She is clearly capable of listening to reason.

No. Junior doctors went on strike before, junior doctors are striking again. What do you think a senior doctor is?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68250536

Anyone below consultant grade is referred to as a junior doctor, for info.

In an ideal world, every worker would get the money they wanted and people would not be ill, sadly we are far away from that, so the next best solution, no strike rule is a must as per my OP

You ve not taken in a single post opposing your view have you? almost no one supports your idea.

Entrenched? yes indeed.

All stick and no carrot and we wonder why nobody wants to work for the NHS under the Tories.

Pay erosion
Removal of bursaries
Getting under qualified people making clinical decisions
Paying for parking at work
Understaffing
Limiting or removing right to strike
Compelling graduates to work for the NHS
Continual negative briefing about NHS and other public sector workers in the right wing press

I wonder what other excellent ideas will be suggested and/or enacted to make the NHS a more attractive place to work.

At the end of it all, you can't actually force people to work for the NHS. They will and are just leaving their jobs to work elsewhere. All minimum service levels and other union-busting activities do is speed up that process.

YABVU. We should be treating our doctors better. They are highly prized around the world and could easily up and leave for better working conditions elsewhere.

Every doctor is worth 10 of the pathetic Rishi Sunak. Cannot wait to see the back of this disgusting government.

If they can write off billions in PPE , Test and Trace, Covid Debt , give to Ukraine, fight Houti’s , Brexit related losses etc , they can afford to pay doctors. They are choosing not to. This is why I don’t support taking more tax from people . A complete restructure of our services is what’s needed so the money is working in the right way.

Lord above are you being deliberately stupid?? 🤦‍♀️😂

Totally unreasonable. Doctors have every right to be paid properly for the hard work that they do. FWIW, I don’t believe you’ve got any doctors in your family because, if you did, you wouldn’t be talking such crap.

Doctors have every right to be paid properly for the hard work that they do.

Well that's certainly an interesting point of view.

There are 4 grades of doctors: Senior House Officer, Registrar, Senior Registrar, Consultant. Every doctor below the level of Consultant is a junior doctor as silly as it sounds. A doctor needs to accumulate experience and pass additional exams to move up. Some doctors move up quickly some not so quickly due to a whole range of circumstances (maternity leave and changing speciality are fairly common). The doctors get a small pay rise in line with inflation and years of experience. Not every doctor becomes a Consultant for all sorts of reasons. So you can have a Senior Registrar with 30 years experience and they are still classed as a junior doctor. However their pay would be better than the Senior Registrar who just became a Senior Registrar before Christmas (after spending 15 years in training)..For all junior doctors their pay is still 35% below 2010 while the stress of the job has gone up. You take their right to strike- you might well push many of them over the edge

The lack of comprehension in the OP's posts beggars belief. No clue whatsoever about the basics of the current situation, never mind any nuance. FFS they don't even know what a junior doctor is but quite happy to shoot their neck out with ridiculous and ill thought out ideas. OP maybe should get more interested in politics, they would fit perfectly into the current cabinet.

Quite apart from the clueless drivel OP is spouting, they are coming across so bloody rude in their responses! Get your head out of your arse, OP, I don’t know who the bloody hell you think you are.

Sort of right.... But wrong.

Anyone below a consultant is referred to as a junior doctor, as demeaning as that term might be...

You referred to the 'old' names, since modernising medical careers, the current grade names and their old school equivalent on training pathways are...

FY1 - PRHO (pre registration house officer)
FY2 - HO (house officer)
Core Trainee (CT) - Senior House Officer
Specialty Trainee - Registrar/Specialist Regsitrar
Consultant

In addition, non training Junior Clinical Fellows exist on FY2—CT3 rotas, Senior Clinical Fellows on Specialty rotas, and confusingly doctors on fellowships who have completed their consultant qualifications and are doing a period of intense supervised / specialist training while looking for a consultant post.

Oh dear OP , I suggest educating yourself before starting an argument on a topic you clearly don’t understand

"at the end of the day you cant force people to work for the nhs..."

Indeed not and thankfully this applies to all kinds of jobs.

However, in times of various woes, etc, etc when people fear losing their overtime, jobs etc, as an NHS doctor you are as good as guaranteed work for as long as you need it.

Many of the senior docs have a second job and according to one of the family, its about 1 in three work for the NHS and also privately and the money is greattttttttttttttt.

Most senior consultants get paid a BASIC rate excess of 100k per annum and then on top of that you have certain allowances, overtime rates, etc etc

What. A. Knob. No further comment required. Happy Friday evening everyone. Remember, you can't argue with stupid.

What actually is the pay at the very start of their careers? And what are the weekly hours?

@Schlappe £32,000, which equates to £15.33 an hour, for the minimum 40 hour week they work. They are asking for £20 an hour.

Striking = blackmail.

@Schlappe although working week can be over 72 hours. No choice, that's your rota do you do it. Only paid over £15.33 an hour for nights.

@Peanutsnanna so you think saving a life is worth £15.33 an hour ?