Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

It's Highley unlikely I would get into Aldi etc I've only ever done care I'm also autistic/adhd so I can't handle change.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator just heard from a friend that her trust have done virtually no elective operating for the last two weeks as the entire hospital is seized up with too many patients.

they were negative 100 beds yesterday (IR had 100 more patients than they have space for)

i’m sure you are still going to argue though that this is all down to medical staff striking though.

Please direct me to where I blamed the docs for all of the waiting list? It is a rhetorical question as I have never said it.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator

You certainly implied it, with a whole thread about Agreeing with Sunak & his take on the subject, Dr's, Waiting lists and Strikes.

Another 5 day strike coming, I don’t blame them. Shame on this Government for not settling the strike, they could sort it out tomorrow if they wanted to. This is not a good look in an election year Sunak!!

@Tevion1213 I am sorry that you have so few options, but that is still no reason for wanting to remove people's rights. Supporting the race to the bottom is exactly what the government wants you to do.

Exactly that. It’s almost as if they’re going all out to lose. Three debacles in one week.

Well, it does not have to be yes or no.
There is an alternative system: the minimum services agreement.
Basic critical services providers can strike, but they must cover 100% of the basic services agreement in place. That means, they have agreed prior that they must have 5 doctors and 12 nurses per day in said hospital department......
So, if the doctors, let's say, vote to strike in % enough to strike, they notify the government or other employer, which must then organised a meeting and set the minimum services level in detail. So, they are forced to sit down to debate it, which in many cases ends up in agreement- meaning no actual operational strike.
A doctor may be on strike, but they may be called to cover the minimum services if the strike actually goes on. It still counts as they supporting the strike in %.
This can be applied to police, firefighters, healthcare, transport, education, finance, waste management, food supply.
All basic needs.
It is designed to secure the right of employees to strike and to ensure the general population does not get affected in far too great measure.
I have seen it being called for several times, but mostly settled during the minimum services meetings. Only twice actually actioned, for healthcare services, and it brought down the government at the time.
I think the UK system is too black and white and it allows for the actual services to be used as a kind of weapon. Drs versus government, but it is the patient and society, yet again, who takes the burden. I do not mean with this that the doctors do not mind about their patients, or that they do not have reasons to strike, just that it puts a strained system under even more pressure, to the detriment of the ill person.

For something as critical as healthcare, I don't believe strikes should be permitted, just like they aren't in other critical professions. It's putting peoples lives at risk and while I sympathise with the cost of living crisis, I don't think putting people at risk is the appropriate way forward.

Does anyone know what the govt pay offer is? I can’t see it anywhere, just that the bma has refused to put an offer to its members.

Lives are being put at risk every single day in the NHS due to lack of staff, Doctors & Nurses have made this point many times. Poor pay and working conditions contribute to the lack of staff, which results in dangerous conditions for patients.

But why is risk to patient safety always put on the shoulders of the Dr Nurse etc?

Surely the Govt has some responsibility in all of this too.

The Docs aren't just striking for more money, its about T&Cs and safe staffing levels.

Also, why is Sunak insisting on the Docs withdraw threat of strike action? thats not the law, its just a self imposed condition and one they never applied to Barristers, which is totally understandable when you consider how many MPs come from the 'Bar.

Yes

Many here have been banging on about "junior doctors," newly qualified doctors pay

So here we go again but its SENIOR doctors striking for another FIVE days. Are They On LOW INCOMES??

Where does this leave the poor patients many of whom may have been waiting months and many seriously anxious about their health and or agreed treatment plan. Do NOT tell me this 5 day strike will not add to the burden of hospital wait-lists and thousands of extra patients won't suffer.

@MushMonster Again, you are just putting all the blame and responsibility at the door of the Doc's.
The Govt could settle this dispute for less money than they have spent on locum cover.

There is already agreements to call back in Dr's in the event of critical emergency, the prob is that the NHS is so run down that even normal day to day care becomes a critical incident.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator Ask the Government?

the Doc's suggested extending their strike mandate for a few more days, so talks could continue, Govt refused.

Typing in bold doesn't make your point more valid.

3% I think. I don't think the BMA have refused to put an offer to members, from that article "The BMA said the government had "failed to to meet the deadline to put an improved pay offer on the table".

Worth noting that they also asked the Health Secretary to extend their strike mandate to allow talks to continue without a strike, and she refused. Once again, blame the government, not the medics.

Whats the point of having talks with a group of people where their demands are entrenched?

There is no reason this gov would willfully ignore an option to end the strik as otherwise they will lose the election

I have to give credit to our man in number 10 as he could easily succumb and give in, but where would that leave us with inflation? For those that have worked all of their lives and saved money for an easier life, rainy day, in high inflation their savings become almost worthless as they don't have scope to earn extra money

Junior doctors I have some sympathy for but not the 30% demanded but fr pete's sake, senior doc striking yet again - not good at all for their patients who will have to wait weeks if not months longer for a cancelled appointment and the ever-growing waiting lists

Paying the doctors properly would have no effect on inflation.
Not a single thing you have cited has made any sense OP.

I feel like I'm going to live to regret this, but

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator *Many here have been banging on about "junior doctors," newly qualified doctors pay

So here we go again but its SENIOR doctors striking for another FIVE days. Are They On LOW INCOMES??*

Do you actually understand what a junior doctor is, and do you understand the incomes of different grades of doctor?

But your views are not entrenched? if Sunak offered the Junior Docs a pay restoration package on top of current offer, i'd not back them, sooooo entrenched are my views!

Spending a few 10s of millions on settling this strike makes no difference to inflation, your understanding is very weak.

As inflation went to 11% plus before anyone demanded hi pay rises, its clear the driver for inflation wasn't pay demands.

Inflation has fallen to 4% despite pay rises running at 8%, so again, further proof that inflation has been caused by other issues, not least corporate greed.

Op you seem confused about who is a junior doctor and who is senior. Either way all of them has seen their pay fall very significantly in real terms , in fact I believe the Consultants have lost out even more than their juniors.

I have just read through the whole thread (which I probably should have done before commenting previously) and I now feel that I don't have the knowledge or the right to comment on whether these strikes should go ahead or not. I have never worked in the healthcare profession (as in NHS etc) and have no idea what the conditions are like. I've spent lengthy times in hospital and have witnessed how run off their feet the staff are but I obviously don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

I don't think they should be working 12 hour shifts for a start. That is too much, to be on your feet constantly and in very intense situations with no breaks. Even Air traffic controllers are only allowed to work for a limited amount of time before having a long break and if they experience a something traumatic (like trying to guide an aircraft down safely that ends up crashing) then they are relieved immediately and not expected to continue working. It should be no different for what health professionals go through and witness on a daily basis.

They need to start being treated like human beings and not robots that can keep on going.

I'm appalled at some of the experiences on here from nurses and doctors.

You have just proven beautifully that you have no idea what you are talking about and the best thing is that it is all in bold.

Who are the senior doctors and when are they going on strike?
Do you mean consultants?
Or senior junior doctors? But not junior junior or middle junior doctors?
Or all junior doctors?

The Government will have spent more money on covering staff absences than the pay rise would have cost.

But it's handy cover to blame the rise in waiting times for treatment that has developed over the last decade - so they probably think it's worth it.

A colleague works for a company that now mandates half days for any medical appointment from experience.

Funny that never gets mentioned when the Tories bang on about how inefficient the UK workforce is.