Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

Not saying this applies to you, but without these individuals many would have been dead a long time ago. I know my FIL, for example, has had about 30 years of borrowed time - diabetes, heart attack, chronic renal failure

@FixTheBone a patient's dad recently asked me how they would train to do my job (anaesthetist).
My anaesthetic nurse helpfully started to answer with "well you go to medical school " at which point they were interrupted with "medical school. to do this. That's a bit of overkill isn't it".

So do tell me. Is your KFC applicant actually GMC registered?

@DuncinToffee

But the ends don't justify the means... it's still just breach of contract/lying/breaking your word.

We don't encourage poor people to steal from large business chains, even though it would result in them having the essentials they need & not making much difference to the company. We recognise that thieving is inherently wrong in and of itself.

I guess that's my argument- that lying is in & of itself wrong.

Don’t you just bung them a bunch of drugs? What could possibly go wrong.

We once had an applicant from the other side of the world who didn’t wish to relocate or commute. Tbf to him I wouldn’t want to commute 4,000+ miles a day either.

You are comparing strikes with lying and stealing?

What are Junior Doctors lying about and what are they stealing?

Not sure.

But they did have a medical degree.

What is the morally acceptable way to make your point when you have a dispute and all the power is in the hands of the employer? Particularly is leaving isn’t an option.

And do you really think that the health service would be in a better position if 100,000 nurses had just quit instead? Not to mention the junior doctors and consultants on top of that.

Your 'argument' is a totally irrelevant non-argument. Who is lying and stealing?

@DuncinToffee

Yes, because if you sign a contract saying "I will be at this place at this time and do this work for this pay"

And then don't show up, you're telling a lie. Breaking a contract is dishonest.

@StrongWhite

Not really. It's a point about the ends not justifying the means. In other words, just because something achieves something good, doesn't mean it's a moral thing to do.

Breaking a contract you signed is immoral.

That's why there is such strict legislation around striking 🤡 it's not just ditching work.

If it was left to people like you we still wouldn't have the vote. I bet you'd have disapproved of Emmeline Pankhurst and her morals

And the stealing?

@kintra

But...it kind of is? I accept it's a legal right, I'm arguing from a moral and philosophical standpoint that's it's wrong to break a contract you've signed.

I think it is for the healthcare professionals to decide whether the ends justify the means as they are the only ones that really understand the severity of the situation and its danger to life. I can't see how anyone could deem just accepting working conditions where patients are put in danger to be more 'moral' than taking a public stance against it. Suggests that you don't have much of an understanding of what's going on at all.

That works both ways. Employers are breaking employees’ contracts all the time in the NHS. Particularly doctors who work hundreds of hours of unpaid overtime.

They aren't breaking a contract. There is a statutory immunity (provided that the union follows our incredibly prescriptive legislation).

What contract ? Doctors are employed by a Trust, not the NHS. Their contracts end every few years and they have to reapply for jobs.

So @anonhop what would you prefer? That doctors and nurses leave the UK, or go and work in LIDL, leaving patients ever more at risk of cancelled operations, unsafe care, medication errors? Aside from the fact that the right to strike is a legal right and the fact that your moral argument only holds water if employers (in this case the government) also act morally (and they are not - they have ignored the recommendations of pay review bodies, for instance) - the end absoslutely does justify the means.

Read my post, we dont have it our children do and we used private and paid cash ie our moeny direct as wanted results quickly - we are no fools and aware how A& E works and I've stated in the thread several times I thank NHS staff for their hard work

Thank you

Lol. I've said it before and say it again, I have no time for any politician.
I have never supported a single political party as they look after themselves first and everyone else comes last.

If all the NHS staff, all prison staff, Armed Forces and Police voted with their feet, what’s going to happen, OP? Why on God’s earth would anyone want to work in a field where you don’t get regular breaks, go to the loo, you have rest days cancelled at short notice - people say ‘they knew what they were getting into’ - that doesn’t make it ok.

The MP Pay body awarded them something like 14% mid austerity where no public services received a pay rise for 3 years!

The ‘protections’ you mention the police having - they can’t be made redundant. That’s it, otherwise they are subject to the same employment lawyers.

Awful attitude, OP. Oh and ps - the wait lists started growing through Covid and then dramatically when the Tories removed some of the treatment targets. And allowed qualified people to leave, which they did, having got sick of being treated like shit and always being at fault for failings a properly funded NHS wouldn’t have.

Same principle unless you have limitless funds as you get older and less healthy.

The irony of your assertion of not being a fool when every single sentence you write just screams the opposite.

Doctors regularly do the jobs of 2 doctors with all the implications for patients' safety. Because there aren't enough of them. Is it what they sign up for? Very often they don't get to choose which Trust they go to, they are posted as a result of their training. Even if they knew the Trust had staff shortages, by your logic it would be better if no doctor signed up unless decent work conditions are guaranteed

I suggest that you start getting political. Because everything in life is politics. From the permitted additives in your loaf of bread to the age you can start drawing your pension to the protection your money enjoy in your bank account- all of this is governed by laws. And laws are made by the law-makers, another name for politicians. Strike laws are made by politicians and could only be cancelled by politicians if enough of the public vote for it. Your thread is incredibly political whether you realise it or not

It really depends if you want any doctors to continue to work in the NHS, or for there to be an NHS for them to work in. If you are happy for the UK to move to entirely private healthcare aside from an emergency system mainly staffed with non doctors, crack on and continue thinking it's a good idea to remove the right to strike.