Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

Foreign courts aren't likely to enforce a UK debt. A friend of mine fucked off to the US with a shed load of student debt and hasn't paid a penny in nearly 25 years.

Regarding burnout of nhs staff. It happens at all stages.
Junior doctors go off to Australia after a couple of years because they are often burnt out from years of hard study at school then 5/6 years a university and 2 years foundation training. They honestly need a break. 18 years olds do not know what it's really like to be a doctor. Tbh if you've not been one, no one does. I've been a junior doctor but 30 years ago and wouldn't pretend to know what it's like to work as one now compared to my T&C.
But look at the other end. Doctors retiring early due to burn out.
It's the same for nurses. Money isn't everything but working conditions, and sense of wellbeing, of being able to do your job properly and care for your patients in the way you know they deserve, are. The stress I experience at work is due to enormous frustration that no matter how hard I work I cannot provide the care my patients deserve due to severe lack of resources. And I've been saying that for years on my annual appraisals.

The NHS is run by the Trusts, for the Trusts. If they got rid of many of the administrative grades, had one senior nurse in charge of wards (ie. Matron), added efficiencies in stocking and supply of medical supplies and equipment, the money would be available to pay the Doctors what they should be getting.
When a relative died, he had been so over-stocked with replacement bottles for his drain, that we tried to return a few boxes to the NHS Trust that had supplied them. They said that because they had been distributed, they had to be disposed.
Each item cost £20. Each box contained 20 items, each wrapped and sealed individually.
We had 5 full boxes and one opened box that had to be destroyed: nearly £2,500 of stock. Disposed. Wasted.
Not to mention that more than a 2-month supply had been delivered at a time when Doctors had confirmed that he was days from death.
This is one patient.
Don’t ever forget that the PPE stockpiled in a number of hospitals during the COVID pandemic was out-of-date, and therefore unusable.
The inefficiencies of those that run the NHS need to be investigated before the Government and Hospital Trusts try to push Doctors’ salaries down: it is the wrong target for cost-cutting.

I’m all for staff being tied into the nhs for a period of time. But it has to be mutually beneficial. Fees being paid by the nhs (for health related degrees), in exchange for a number of years nhs service as an example. Those who do not want to work in the nhs ( not everyone does) would have the option of paying their own fees.

Attention all:
I've been thanking quite a few posts in this thread privately, ie via the thanks button as they are informative and sensible and not rude.

Now to the quoted post. On balance, the first great idea to come out of the thread that was not posted by me is mandatory time spent in NHS post qualifications in return for a bursary.

Those who want to leave post qualification without honouring the minimum term contract post qualification could repay the bursary or not take it up initially
Re pay within certain timescales that would be pre-determined..

Hello
I was posting when you must have posted and only just read your post. I can whole heartedly agree with that

So with no admin, who is going to book appointments, send letters, do the paperwork, arrange transfers, contact relatives, upload data for the government reporting?

the reason you couldn't return the boxes of stuff is, because it left the supply chain, it could no longer be guaranteed as safe or sterile. You could have done anything to it.

And it was the NHS stockpiling PPE they couldn't use? or was it our delightful government providing them with PPE they couldn't use and so could do nothing with it?

Someone who has been completely burnt out by the system will then be left with crushing debt with a timescale to repay? Someone who has been given responsibilities outside of what they should have, causing PTSD?

@justteanbiscuits I didn’t say get rid of admin, just maybe not have the Management-heavy structure that a lot of HT’s provide.
AFAIK, the Govt asked hospitals who had spare stock to share with those that didn’t - again - an administrative error (or possibly a cynical move to look as if they were being proactive). It’s not just in the NHS, either.
Do you remember when Philip Green said this? OK, I accept he’s a wrong ‘un, but there is a lot of truth in his criticism of the government(s) in general:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2010/10/green_id_be_bust_if_i_ran_my_b.html

People don’t seem to understand that pay and conditions are inextricably linked. It’s much easier to tolerate a 12 hour shift with no break if you know you don’t have to come home and clean the house because you can afford a cleaner. If you can afford a takeaway because you’re too exhausted to cook. If you can afford a taxi home from work at 2am because you’re too tired to drive. If conditions aren’t going to improve, then pay has to.

Ah, the delightful Mr Green, asset stripper and bankrupt. Let's all take his advice.

How would it work in real life? 50% of marriages end up in divorce. What would you want to do about a junior doctor sobbing their heart off because they single handedly covered the job of 2 doctors in the previous 3 shifts (each lasting 14 hours). And now they are having a panic attack at the prospect of going back to the ward . If you think it's not happening I can assure you it does and on a regular basis. So what would you want to do? Force them back to work? To look after your relatives and children?

The nhs would pay fees for health care related degrees. Students undertaking those courses would sign an agreement that in exchange for their fees being paid, they will work in the nhs for so many years ( let’s say 5). It’s a simple concept and one that’s used by employers to a certain extent already when they pay for their employees to undertake post graduate study.

See now I know you're trolling. "The respected Jeremy Hunt" 😂 Good one!

What do you mean? A dr who requires time off work due to stress will do so, whether they are tied into the nhs for 5 years or not. Opting to have fees paid and the resulting tie in would be a choice ( with the way I would implement it🤣) . So those wanting the freedom to leave the nhs at any point would still have that.

This really does show how little you know and understand health care.

This doctor would be rightfully signed off sick. But remain employed by the trust I am not sure what you are suggesting ?

Ive worked in the nhs since 1999 🤣

What would you do to cut waiting lists and ensure you and patients did not lose out? Personally, I'd have a no-strike agreement, a numbers of years newly qualified staff worked for NHS and look at every contract NHS has with buying items, leasing, renting buildings, hiring of agency staff and changing contracts re the way some consultants worked etc. You can have your say without attacking me as my opinion is as valid as yours

Initially, a big increase in private sector doing operations.
Longer term, better pay and conditions and incentives to get PT AHPs back into FT work, reinstate the bursary and refund loan payments to staff.
Investments with equipment and buildings.

Banning and strikes and making staff become "bonded" workers is just going to ensure staff leave/don't join the NHS.

To pay for all this? well, that £26bn tax cut give away, would have paid for this a few times over.

Then you really should understand a hell of a lot better what the realities are.

What happens to the woman who becomes pregnant and wants a career break? Those that breakdown and have to change careers? What about those who, in their FYI years don't get a placement and so go locum? Or those that get a placement that is geographically impossible for them? Those that go into research? What about those that don't pass the exams when they're Junior doctors? Do they get the 5 years they have to work extended?

You want them to pay back £100k? Or just £50k? You liken it to other professions where they might have to pay back £10k maximum on leaving.

And those that do stay the 5 years. Does the NHS pay for the continuing qualifications, or will the Doctors continue having to pay for those? is it added onto the cost they have to pay if they leave?

The key phrase in your post "they pay their employees ". So their employees already know the conditions they will return into. And their training last 1-2 years, not 7. Furthermore I worked as a health care assistant across 12 wards (including maternity) before I trained as a midwife. I thought I knew what I was getting into. I can assure up suddenly becoming fully responsible for the lives of 8 mothers and 8 babies for the duration of one 12 hour shift was a massive shock to the system (this is on a fully staffed postnatal word). And suddenly being responsible for the life of a mother and a baby on the labour ward - your stress levels are insanein thefirstyear. Thankfully I started a while ago so there was a lot of support around. So many newly qualified leave in the first year, they simply can't cope. Also you are saying the staff should commit for 5 years which sounds reasonable. Except in health care your first 5 years are spent from being a novice to finding your feet. Surely if your house was burgled you would prefer a policeman with 5 years of experience not just out of police academy. It's an unworkable idea even if it sounds good in principle.

They could pay it back in much the same way they do now - deducted from salary as a percentage of earnings. Student debt is an enormous concern for junior drs, it reduces their net pay and is essentially another tax. For many years. From my discussions with junior drs since the strikes started, many would opt for fees being paid in exchange for a period of nhs service. Of course that is my own experiences of talking to my colleagues and doesn’t represent the whole population of junior drs out there. But no one here knows what ‘all’ junior drs would opt to do - perhaps the govt should ask them?

The post is about whether it's a good idea to remove the doctors right to strike as a solution to cancelled appointments. The doctors don't strike because they have nothing better to do. They strike to ensure there are sufficient numbers of doctors to provide safe care. And their pay is a big issue. It's been eroded by 35% since 2010. They are contracted to work 48 hours a week. They do 70 minimum. You don't walk away from the ward chaos just because your time is up. Not if you have the heart of a doctor. There are simply not enough doctors, nurses or midwives around. Young people don't want to put up with crap pay and conditions anymore. So they vote with their feet

It is the normal for recruitment to band 5/6/7 nursing posts and most medical posts to take at least two rounds of advertising. The number of applicants is regularly 0. The cost to the NHS is huge, both in financial and in manpower terms. The only thing that will get the NHS back on its feet is improving pay and conditions. Beyond that, we need to reverse the huge rise in poverty and deprivation we have had over the last 14 years, in order to improve the general health of the population. Removing the right to strike will achieve none of this.

This!