Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

Or the government could just pay them a decent wage…

If they were paid properly I wouldn't have have an issue but they're not. Any sector that deals with people is underpaid in some way and usually underfunded.

All these people who say they aren't allowed to strike, with the subtext being that doctors shouldn't either, all complain long and loud about their pay.

It's not Rishi Sunak putting the block. It's the same old Jeremy Hunt who started the mess in 2016, watched the NHS recruitmement and retention crisis to grow and is now holding the Treasure strings. I understand Jeremy's logic- him, his family and golf partners can afford private health care. But they need to get richer on the back of the majority of the population who still need to use NHS. Hence the rich are getting richer through all sorts of taxation tricks and no money in the kitty to pay the doctors and nurses a decent wage. Interestingly, the same Jeremy Hunt has no issues with releasing billions of pounds to bomb far flung lands that pose no direct threat to the UK

I found this interesting:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/02/07/sunak-strike-crackdown-could-breach-brexit-trade-deal

Doctors have to study for up to 7 years to qualify, yet the government (none of the members of whom appear to have the correct qualifications to do their jobs) award themselves many times more than they want to pay for Doctors working in the NHS.
Ex-civil servants, many of whom are “Managers” in Hospital Trusts are also (over) compensated generously, without having to have qualified for anything.
until this imbalance is addressed, and Doctors are given the compensation they have worked hard for, I absolutely support their right to strike.
Everyone should be compensated according to the value they add to Society…

Everyone should have the legal right to withdraw their labour. Removing the right to strike allows exploitative employers to mistreat their workers. The current government is treating all strikers badly because its politically expedient for them to do so. Look what's happened to Dentistry. They didn't bother striking, they've just withdrawn their services. Where are all those missing GPs? Those of you who value NHS doctors had better wake up and support them or find they've followed the others out of the door. All part of dismantling the NHS and putting public money into private investment hands.

I suggest in order to continuee calling yourself the DistinguishedSocialCommentator you need to widen your range of reading sources and start thinking analytically. Daily Mail is owned by a rich man . So are The Telegraph, The Sun, The Times. They all push the agenda to promote the Conservative government in order to preserve their wealth, their mansions and yachts and their membership of exclusive clubs. The only newspaper wholly owned by subscribers is The Guardian. Therefore they are free to investigate and print without needing to please their rich paymasters. The Guardian is free to read. I suggest you have a look at their coverage of NHS and social issues crisis. Like one of the commentators already noted there is often no help in the community to discharge frail patients. So they end up staying in a hospital bed and the operation is cancelled. This is on top of doctors and nurses pay.

I found this interesting:

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/02/07/sunak-strike-crackdown-could-breach-brexit-trade-deal

What's interesting about this is the recommended minimum staffing levels for strike days in the hospitals was often higher than the non strike days. The strikes were about safe staffing levels as much as they were about pay. I think nurses and doctors would be delighted to work on wards with recommended minimum staffing levels.

For anyone interested

ITV will be showing a drama series called Breathtaking based on the personal memoirs of Dr Rachel Clarke detailing the early days of the pandemic.

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/breathtaking-covid-drama-trailer-newsupdate/

There is a trailer on YouTube

And if we accept a private service, where do you think the specialists will be trained and come from? If the current junior doctors are leaving to go to other countries, and the gaps are being filled by doctors from the Asian subcontinent who may or may not stay who will be the new consultants who will work in the NHS or privately or both. The waiting lists in the private hospitals are getting longer now.

Vaguely reminds me of the old joke about British Leyland workers making more cars on a go-slow than in normal production.

Reding almost every post since I initiated this thread, couple of new ideas

I have no reason to believe shortages but you get them in almost every profession as people will go on sick leave etc etc - yes, in hospitals its a matter of life and death - so what is the solution rather than just throwing more of my money (taxpayers) at the NHS? Or training more NHS staff that costs loads only to find they ove to another country that will always pay more and that is historical. This is why I am advocating madatory contract length within the NHS after qualifying and this has been thought about by our gov.

Last point and all will know this is the case but some may choose to ignore. Many have said strikes are/were for the safety of patients. If thats the case, why not accept pay raises offered as nurses have and then strike for safety at work and that of patients?

It you are being honest with yourselves, there is no, IMO easy solution and more than enough money has been directed towards the NHS

What would you do to cut waiting lists and ensure you and patients did not lose out? Personally, I'd have a no-strike agreement, a numbers of years newly qualified staff worked for NHS and look at every contract NHS has with buying items, leasing, renting buildings, hiring of agency staff and changing contracts re the way some consultants worked etc. You can have your say without attacking me as my opinion is as valid as yours.

(I do wish our NHS was the number one in the world but I'm not sure how to get there even with my opinios posted above)

I thank all the hard-working NHS staff that do a great job!!

1. It is not legal to strike over anything except pay. You basically have to say it is about pay.
2. As mentioned a million times already, if you pay people properly, they won't leave for pastures greener. People don't uproot themselves for the fun of it.
3. A properly paid, properly staffed NHS will run far better than what we have now. The data has been posted on this thread, but you have not acknowledged that at all.
4. Your opinion is not as valid as anyone else's because you refuse to acknowledge facts when they are presented to you.

Your opinion is indeed valid as is your right to hold it. It is also misinformed, ignorant and short sighted.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator I have no reason to believe shortages but you get them in almost every profession as people will go on sick leave etc etc - yes, in hospitals its a matter of life and death - so what is the solution rather than just throwing more of my money (taxpayers) at the NHS?

What you call 'throwing money' could also be framed as 'properly investing'. Lack of money does seriously affect care. An example from my own profession - clinical but not doctors. If someone leaves or retires from a post (or dies, tbh, which has happened a few times in the past year), their job is picked over by workforce governance. It is rarely approved like for like, e.g. as a full time, same grade post. It's usually not replaced, banded down a pay grade, or hours are reduced. Please tell me how my colleagues and I are supposed to provide the same service (and actually, let's be honest, management are wanting a better service and asking us to do more and more, see more and more patients) with less staff? This will be replicated across the UK, in multiple professions.

CLARIFICATION - TYPO - added word " NOT"

DistinguishedSocialCommenator · Today 10:06

Reding almost every post since I initiated this thread, couple of new ideas

I have no reason NOT to believe shortages but you get them in almost every profession as people will go on sick leave etc etc - yes, in hospitals its a matter of life and death - so what is the solution rather than just throwing more of my money (taxpayers) at the NHS? Or training more NHS staff that costs loads only to find they ove to another country that will always pay more and that is historical. This is why I am advocating madatory contract length within the NHS after qualifying and this has been thought about by our gov.

Last point and all will know this is the case but some may choose to ignore. Many have said strikes are/were for the safety of patients. If thats the case, why not accept pay raises offered as nurses have and then strike for safety at work and that of patients?

It you are being honest with yourselves, there is no, IMO easy solution and more than enough money has been directed towards the NHS

What would you do to cut waiting lists and ensure you and patients did not lose out? Personally, I'd have a no-strike agreement, a numbers of years newly qualified staff worked for NHS and look at every contract NHS has with buying items, leasing, renting buildings, hiring of agency staff and changing contracts re the way some consultants worked etc. You can have your say without attacking me as my opinion is as valid as yours.

(I do wish our NHS was the number one in the world but I'm not sure how to get there even with my opinions posted above)

I thank all the hard-working NHS staff that do a great job!!

Nurse here, I was devastated at how quickly we gave up on strike action and caved. By the way, when we did strike, all areas were covered with staffing. If we completely withdrew our labour as in there were no nurses on duty in hospital, thousands of people would die each day. Maybe even 10’s of thousands. Yet apparently a new nurse is only worth 28k a year before tax. And a very senior band 5 nurse is only worth 34k before tax. No wonder people can’t wait to get out. I’d earn more working at Lidl.

I appreciate your trying to get to the bottom of the issue.

We don't have shortages of IT engineers, financiers or taxi drivers. We have shortages of NHS, science teachers and care home staff. If it's not money than what is it?

Lots of my midwifery colleagues left midwifery and retrained in other fields in the UK. They didn't go abroad. It's often a very painful choice. However for many of my colleagues their health and family lives became more important than trying to deliver good care at the expense of their health amidst poor staffing.

Minimal length of service and no strike clause is not going to work. People will always retain the right to go sick (or commit suicide for that matter). Sickness levels are already very high on NHS. If people know in advance they will be responsible for the money the government has spent on their training many will not start training at all in my honest opinion. Why put yourself in indentured labour? The risk would be too high unless one has rich parents to bail you out.

Also imagine the newspaper coverage when a burned out doctor or a nurse is forced to go to work?

Also you don't want a burnt out doctor or a nurse to look after our nearest and dearest.

I can't comment on procurement etc. I am sure the Trusts are doing what they can already.

As for enough money for NHS. Our population is getting older and unhealthier with each passing year. We can't improve our productivity unless we start tackling underlying causes. Poverty is one of the major determinants of poor health and chronic health conditions. We can't fix NHS without political will and there is none in this Government. For example, they have been burying Child Obesity strategy for a good number of years now. Because it's politically inconvenient.

The nurses and midwives got 5.5% payrise last June (and only after striking). This came after years of below inflation payrises (we got 1% payrise after Covid). Last June inflation was 10.2%. NHS is hemorrhaging staff. If you don't want to pay more taxes perhaps you should start lobbying the Government to spend less on warfare. And to sort out their own procurement procedures

I mean, I did find this quote in the piece so I’m not sure we can take this too seriously.

Mr Hunt will add: ‘From September 2018, we will train up to 1,500 more doctors every year, increasing the number of medical school places by up to a quarter. Of course it will take a number of years before those doctors qualify, but by the end of the next parliament we will make the NHS self- sufficient in doctors.’

I don’t necessarily disagree that there should be a mandatory service period for doctors who have trained in the NHS. I would suggest that it might be interesting to understand more about the demographic of those taking their skills abroad. Moving to another country is a huge undertaking and I’m just not sure that a vast number of newly qualified doctors are doing this. I’d assume (although I don’t know which is why I’d like more info) that it’s those who have had time to become burnt out and disillusioned with the NHS, so a mandatory service period may have very little effect.

I also think that if we are spending such a significant amount of money training doctors then surely it’s in our interests to improve conditions to make it easier to retain them. I work in the private sector and recruitment is expensive. It’s far more cost effective to invest in the team you have so that they actually want to stay. Forcing them to work, either by implementing mandatory service after training or taking away their right to strike in order to cut waiting lists isn’t going to foster a positive working culture.

I’d argue that it’s more important to attract diligent young people with a strong sense of autonomy and the right values to these roles and this may well discourage those sort of people from becoming doctors in the first place. Making the NHS a positive place to work and ensuring it’s workforce feels as appreciated and valued as it actually is would be a far more effective solution long term. I hazard a guess that it would actually save money too.

Instead of reposting your previous post in its entirety, you could better use your time in addressing all the things that have been pointed out to you by people who know what they're talking about:

• the graphic showing how few cancelled procedures are due to strikes
• the graph showing the rise of waiting lists since 2010

And then maybe you would be able to understand that the problem isn't strikes, it's this government.

@SchoolQuestionnaire thank you for that excellent and sensible private sector perspective.

No !

YABU.

So, if we bring in a mandatory contract length for new Doctors, will the Government also give them a bursary so they don't run up hideous debt for training? At the minimum the £9k a year university fee.

What about those that need to leave, not just for a different country / private? Those that want to go into research rather than patient facing? Those that simply can't cope. You can't force people to continue being a Doctor.

It might be a good idea if we wrote off healthcare professionals’ student debt in exchange for a stipulated period of work in the NHS. Although they’re supposed to repay the debt, if they emigrate very few do in practice so there’s a double whammy.