Nursery refused place aibu

[Honeyplease]

Saw a lovely nursery 2 weeks ago. Looking to start my 2yo son who is currently with a childminder. I mentioned that he had tried preschool but didnt get on with it too well (he is only just 2 and the preschool had mostly 3/4 year olds) I also mentioned that I suspect him to be neurodiverse but I wasn’t sure (no diagnosis or anything) he is developmentally on track he just has odd quips.

Was given a reg form, sent it back same day. Waited.. nothing. sent another email, and another.. tried calling. Left a voicemail. Basically 2 weeks of chasing. Nothing.

Today I finally received an email back from the owner.

“The problem I have in securing the place is we already have children coming through with significant needs and I'm concerned having spoken to our special educational needs coordinator that we won't have the capacity to give your son the the quality of care he deserves just like any other child.”

I am stunned! Aibu? surely they cannot do this.

OP@Honeyplease i think many nurseries are struggling anyway with the covid/post covid cohort of kids - there's apparently a lot of NT kids that are way behind in normal development so i imagine they are having to put a lot more work in at a time when their staffing is super stretched. if you are seriously thinking your child is ND at 2 (which is super early) then I would highly suggest you discuss this with your HV - my sister knew very early on her son was "different" (diagnosed autistic at primary, very high achieving academically, socially/emotionally struggling since pre-school) - as they may well be able to reassure you if they aren't seeing what you see . What does your child minder say, has he been coping well in that setting?

@arethereanyleftatall

My child has a speech delay and is awaiting an ASD diagnosis.
He has recently started swimming lessons.
He started in a small group, has gained confidence and is now in a bigger group and doing absolutely fine.

It would have been wrong - I think - if had been refused a place because he has an EHCP. If one group refuses him, why shouldn’t other groups adopt the same ethos?
The result is that he is never accepted, he never gains confidence in the water, he never learns to swim.

It may be unfair on the business, but ultimately it is unfair on any child who has additional needs. You are saying that those children shouldn’t learn to swim because they are too needy. That’s unfair.

When you visited you told them your son would need extra support when you said you think he is neuro-diverse and didn't get on well another pre school - they don't have that extra support available so there isn't a place there for him i'm not sure what else you would expect a nursery to do (unless you actually don't think he is nuerodiverse and needing extra support)..

It would be worse for the nursery to accept children which they may not be able to look after

I had this exact issue with a nursery for my asd (then undiagnosed but on pathway) son when he was 3. Lots of calls and sent form etc and they blatantly said they had received all forms etc and not sure why etc and I resent form to them going around in circles until I realised they just didn’t want us. We found a lovely state maintained preschool afterwards which turned out to be miles better than the first one and helped me massively in applying for his ehcp with ultimately secured his place at a specialist school. Have you a preschool nursery nearby?

They Would need to apply for additional funding for him if that’s the case.

Everyone on this thread could do with reading the equality act! You cannot discriminate based on a disability!

Everyone on this thread could do with reading the equality act! You cannot discriminate based on a disability!

@HermioneKipper thank you for this. I wondered if I'd stumbled into a parallel universe where suppliers were allowed to discriminate!

But, I suppose the obligation is to make reasonable adjustments, and sometimes it's difficult to prove a supplier hasn't done that? If offering OP's child a place would require employing additional staff and that would be (1) difficult to recruit and (2) costly, perhaps that's too much to expect?

In OP's shoes, I probably wouldn't have mentioned neurodivergency. Most 2 year olds have a few quirks

We had exactly the same thing. Montessori nursery wouldn’t take my son who was 2 at the time. At the time I was furious but now I am pleased they were honest. Because the state nursery he ended up at said they would take him and I was so happy somewhere said yes but really they couldn’t support his needs fully and handled it all badly, not getting him the support he needed because they just didn’t know what to do/had no experience. Just make sure wherever your child ends up they have an excellent SENDCO, who is supportive, proactive and know how to access support for your child. Not saying that your child will necessarily need this but for my child if they had known how to access an educational psychologist for example.

I'm not saying that as such. Swimming is often absolutely awesome for children with needs, they love the sensory 'ness' of the water.
What I'm saying is that when a person sets up a business, they set it up to make a profit. Unless they're a charity. That will be the aim of their business.
If they can't make a profit, they don't have a viable business. They fold.

There is no easy answer. Absolutely kids with special needs should have the same access to everything. But who pays is the question. Government support to small business per child with special needs?

@arethereanyleftatall

I think this is the issue, poor government funding - that pushes businesses to make difficult decisions. Additionally, the impact of Covid.

But - I think ultimately it’s us adults who need to adapt and change to accommodate for the needs of the children we bring into the world. They’re innocent in this and have the right to learn.

Better funding, better research, changing our educational approach, training etc : rather than excluding.

In principle, I realise it’s difficult in practice.

I don't think they can do this, no. Having said that, I think you should consider very carefully whether you want your DS to be in an environment where they are already stretched with children who have known SEN if you suspect your DS has SEN.

I once took DD2 around a school and said that I was pursuing an ASD diagnosis but she masks really well. The HT said 'I do have a space, but please don't bring her here. I could throw another 5 adults into that class and it still wouldn't be great because we have so much need. You would get your evidence for her diagnosis within 3 weeks, but it would destroy her in the process.' I listened. That was the last they saw of us. She did go on to get an ASD dx.

Except they didn’t even ask what the needs were and DID exclude on the basis of SEN. (even if undiagnosed)

I have a child with SEN who has an echp so yes I damn well do know what disability discrimation is as I’ve experienced it firsthand.

Being honest I am a little confused as to why you mentioned potentially nuerodiverse and his needs in the first place. Are his needs do significant you are sure you will get a diagnosis or the nursery maybe unable to support him without knowing fron the offset? This is said as a parent of a diagnosed neurological condition. If not let the nursery decide if they think your child is and they can base there support on your child not presumptions they have made. Unfortunately if your child nuerodiverse you may find things like this happen more and more and often in supposedly inclusive settings. They can do it though as they are a private nursery.

A couple of parents I know ending up withdrawing their kids from Montessori due to it not being a good mesh with SN.

The parents were saying things like “We’re concerned that our son is spending really long periods of the day lining things up and letting sand trickle through his fingers and that the nursery is just letting him rather than actively incorporating him into social and verbal activities,” and the Montessori nursery was like “We believe that if a child spends hours letting sand run through their fingers, it’s because that child NEEDS to spend hours letting san run through their fingers” etc.

In the end the parents left and looked for places that drew children into varied and structured activities in a more proactive way, so that their children would develop better social skills and speech.

I'm not sure why you'd want your child to go to a nursery that's told you from the outset they aren't prepared or able to give your child the quality of care they need.

Op I would repost this thread in the special needs section. The responses their will be more supportive and helpful, Am sorry for some of the comments you have had.

Any school can be named in an EHCP, but the school has to agree to accepting that child.

Unless the school is wholly independent, they don’t.

Unless the school is wholly independent the LA must name parental preference unless the LA can prove:
-The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs (“SEN”) of the child or young person; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.
The bar to do this is higher than many realise and unless the LA can do this they can, and must, name the school regardless of the school’s objections when consulted. However, that doesn’t stop many LAs unlawfully refusing and forcing parents to appeal. Once named the school must admit.

Yes they can do this! And they’re being honest they can’t look after a child whose mum made is sound like is is special needs.
Why do you think he’s neurodiverse? What did you mean by that?
if he’s just developing in his own way but nothing is wrong, then yeah you mucked up

Different but the same - my friend could only find one nursery in a large area to take her daughter because she had allergies.

It’s sad that some kids miss out but at least the nursery aren’t spreading themselves too thin in the care they can provide

I don't understand what you're "stunned" about? Yes, yabu. Would you honestly prefer them to deliberately take on your child knowing they couldn't give him the support he needs? Is that genuinely what you're saying you want the outcome of this to be? Why?

I agree with this.

People on this thread clearly have no idea.

But better to find out now than them saying they can’t deal with him down the track - awful as the whole thing is

Actually I should add legally the nursery can't discriminate because of a disability but your child hasn't got a confirmed disability at this point so isn't covered under the disability act. A They can as a private nursery refuse any application they wish though.

The simple answer to this if your child needs extra support is to offer to pay for it.

You can’t expect the nursery to fund the additional support that your child needs. Nursery is group care - the children have to share the attention of an adult with the rest of their group. You’re not going to get individualised care when the ratio is 4 or 5 to 1, it just isn’t possible.

I see no justification for the nursery being out of pocket. This is YOUR child and they are running a business, not a charity. I’m sure if you write back offering to fund the additional support your child needs, the nursery will be more than willing to accept him.

If they identify that the child has additional needs then it’s their responsibility to apply to the LA for funding and support.

They are regulated by the council and Ofsted and they are breaking regulations if they don’t do this.

Do not post when you clearly have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about