Nursery refused place aibu

[Honeyplease]

Saw a lovely nursery 2 weeks ago. Looking to start my 2yo son who is currently with a childminder. I mentioned that he had tried preschool but didnt get on with it too well (he is only just 2 and the preschool had mostly 3/4 year olds) I also mentioned that I suspect him to be neurodiverse but I wasn’t sure (no diagnosis or anything) he is developmentally on track he just has odd quips.

Was given a reg form, sent it back same day. Waited.. nothing. sent another email, and another.. tried calling. Left a voicemail. Basically 2 weeks of chasing. Nothing.

Today I finally received an email back from the owner.

“The problem I have in securing the place is we already have children coming through with significant needs and I'm concerned having spoken to our special educational needs coordinator that we won't have the capacity to give your son the the quality of care he deserves just like any other child.”

I am stunned! Aibu? surely they cannot do this.

The first nursery setting I went to see, I took my son (2yo at the time) with me to see it, who can be very boisterous. We were lead into a room full of eerily silent 18 month to 2.5 year olds sat eating their snacks in a group on the floor. He climbed up onto a play house and started shouting down at them all like an exuberant dictator trying to radicalise them into action.

I asked a lot of questions about how they manage problem behaviour like toy throwing, because my toddler "has a good arm on him!". I seriously questioned my own sanity for saying that after the door closed behind us. It was very much a 'Well we've got your number, we'll let you know if we have the availability...' type vibe from them, and then I got royally fobbed off by them telling me the computer system was down for days and days on end 😂

The next nursery setting I went to visit, I did not take him with me and I made absolutely no mention of toy throwing. He got a place, and loves it there! No concerns at all from the staff.

Respectfully he’s 2. I have a near 2 year old boy. What exactly is it that’s neurodiverse. Their brains aren’t even formed yet. It’s half tumble weed in there rolling round trying to build connections.

I phoned a nursery and just mentioned that my 2 year old had hypermobility and for the meantime would temporarily need help/a hand hold going up and down stairs. They expressed concerns immediately about being able to look after him and labelled him as SEN. Some nurseries just aren’t the right fit. I would definitely find a different nursery.

its a nursery not a charity it is best to have children that can be helped in places that can actually help them

OK then Jackanory 👍🏼

I think the OP definitely meant quirks rather than quips. So many people are quoting it. Although saying that my ND daughters and friends are definitely the wittiest people I know.
I think the advice about having a thick skin is very helpful. But there is no denying how much it hurts when you get a taste of the pain of rejection that happens a little/ a lot to our ND kids.
Loads of joy and fun too, but it was very upsetting at first realising we were going on a different track to other kids their age. Definitely look for a school with good resources, even if you have to stay on a waitlist longer to get a place.

I work in a nursery, though not in the UK. It is unfortunately a fact that if the ratio of children with special needs to children without is too high, the job becomes unmanageable. Some children require so much special care and attention that having more than 2 per group can seriously impair the caregivers' ability to adequately care for the whole group of children. The facility has a responsibility to all the children in its care, and the wellbeing of the group must be carefully weighed with the inclusion of non-neurotypical individual children. Such decisions are difficult, but ultimately for the good of all children, including the rejected child. I once worked at a facility where the proportion of children with behavioural issues or conditions like autism or adhd was about 30%, and it was pure chaos, and disastrous for both the neurotypical and neurodivergent kids, none of whom were able to get the care they needed.

However OP, I'd be more wary of self-diagnosing your child with a condition at age 2, then telling childcare providers he potentially has something when you have no formal diagnosis. Have him seen by a professional and until then don't make any assumptions - kids can seem odd as toddlers then grow out of it completely as they get older. Many conditions cannot even be diagnosed at age 2 because it's just too early. I don't know exactly what you mean by "odd quips", but it's definitely always a good idea to get an evaluation before labelling a child, as labels can stick and may not always be accurate.

Yes, I’d be quite impressed at a 2yo coming out with “quips”!

I’m a little aghast at all the poster assuming the OP is of course going to rush to getting a diagnosis of some kind for a child who is two and meeting normal milestones. I know that suggesting that SEN is getting a bit overdiagnosed will bring on some angry responses here, but I don’t know what else we are supposed to think when faced with the above reactions.

I certainly don’t know anything about it, but I think it maybe a breach of the Equalities Act.
Below is an article from from 2012 looking at some of the issues surrounding -

It might be worth looking up the act and reading through to see if it is relevant / applicable to a private setting ?

I would be really surprised if, in this day and age you are allowed to cherry pick kids, like they have suggested, based on ability. Even if it is a concern on providing care. You could ask have all reasonable steps been taken to avoid discrimination on this occasion? Has the nursery exhausted all options to provide care for your child ?

In my opinion you can’t just discriminate against one group of kids, because it takes more effort. Then what are all the neurodiverse children meant to do? I would probably ask for further clarification from them about these additional requirements, how this has been reviewed and why they feel they are unable to provide that level of support?
If you think about it logically, are they saying they already have a full quota for SEN children? So they are absolutely full, all shifts, all times of the day? I am sure there must be certain times when they have spaces / less kids in, some afternoons or days?

I think if they really can’t accommodate a good level of care, and have reviewed and exhausted all options, then it is acceptable for the benefit of your child. But, I would certainly challenge them and get further clarification.

As others have stated I perhaps wouldn’t mention your concerns next time you visit a setting.

https://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/features/article/nursery-management-the-equality-act-2010-acting-to-end-discrimination#:~:text=The%20Equality%20Act%202010%20replaces,must%20comply%20with%20the%20Act.

Plus I wouldn’t want my kid going there anyway If that’s their attitude….

I think unless he genuinely has some behaviours/needs that require special attention I wouldn’t mention them, if he doesn’t have a diagnosis then it’s a bit pointless saying anything. I would also point out that most kids have quirks and thats totally normal. At various points in DD’s early years I’ve thought she may be autistic or had ADHD but nope she’s completely NT (I’m not around kids so had no idea what was normal in my defence).

DD’s nursery (not UK) happily took ND kids and kids with other disabilities as long as they could meet their needs. This is reasonable for the kids and for the nursery.

Hi , my daughter was diagnosed with autism at two . I had her on a waiting list for a local “ outstanding “ nursery . At an assessment group I attended with dd , the nursery senco tried to talk me into sending her to the sister nursery, in a more deprived area . I could tell they didn’t want my child , in their fancy nursery, and looked for another setting. Don’t place a child where they are unwelcome .

@Honeyplease

I’d have a look at their website. What does it say about inclusivity?

If they are saying something to you which is at odds with their advertised ethos, I think you could ask for clarification quoting any inclusivity phrases from their website. And if they are OFSTED registered, you could take it further there.
I personally don’t think it’s right.

What they’ve done is actually illegal. They’ve discriminated. If they had asked questions around the support that he has and then refused that would be ok but just to assume is what constitutes discrimination.

It's a free country so of course they can do this. It's not as if you didn't almost force their hand by acting the fool and putting the worst possible spin on your own child and his potential needs without a shred of hard evidence.

It sounds reasonable of them. They don't have the resources to look after him properly. Would you rather they squeezed him in and neglected him?

This isn't true. They are not descriminating, they are explaining they cannot meet his needs.
Source: ex teacher

I also suspect that they might be in breach of the equalities act in refusing a child because of the idea of SEN.

For those saying that 2 is too early to tell if there’s any SEND, I could tell my DC was developing differently at around 6-8 weeks. I have no idea whether the OP’s child has SEND but gaslighting of parents of kids with additional needs is all too common.

OP a few practical ideas - speak to your HV. She might know which local nurseries are good for SEND and if she’s good will be a great ally through this. Also look at your LA’s Local Offer which will set out something called SENIF funding, which is extra funding that the nursery may be able to access. It’ll be harder though without things like a diagnosis or DLA.

I do have some sympathy for the nursery though, it’s such an underfunded sector. Ours is incredible for my DC with fairly pronounced needs but it’s been a lot of work for them.

And agree that if it turns out this is the path you’re on you’ll need a thick skin and a lot of fire in your belly.

Don’t mention any suspected neurodiversity at any nursery visits (especially as he doesn’t require any support and is developmentally on track).

When I DS was 2 I was looking for a nursery space for him. DS has a speech delay (now catching up). I’m mentioned to the nurseries that his current nursery suspected he has autism, but he is happy at nursery, engages in all the activities, sits on the carpet at story time, and there had never been any issues with his behaviour. I would go on the tour and they would be lovely but no nurseries had availability in the half of the city I live in.

i suspect some of the nurseries didn’t have availability, but some had availability then suddenly after the tour didn’t, some said they didn’t and waitlist (and I’ve never been contacted in over a year), one nursery confirmed at they wouldn’t have space when he was 3 or in the September after even though they had 30 4 year olds going to school. I had a SENco show me round one nursery and she was lovely and explaining all of the help she could give DS with his speech. The manager rang me up after the tour and was extremely agressive and refused to confirm any availability at all.

Its nothing to do wirh the local authority and reading from the email its clearly saying they already have so many children with needs that they are unable to cope with any more in their setting and there is nothing wrong with saying that

Nurseries are closing every 5 minutes which means those surviving are seeing more children with significant needs coming through, that do not bring with them adequate additional funding (you can claim something like £30 a week when they get the universal 3y funding).

Eventually they'll close too because it costs a lot to put the provision in place that the local authorities want to see for those children, but won't pay for.

The nursery isn't the one to be cross with. They've been honest and probably felt shit doing so.

Actually, they can. As can schools. Any school can be named in an EHCP, but the school has to agree to accepting that child. The LA ask the school to determine if they can meet the needs of that child without it being detrimental to other children already there.

For those who don't know the ins and outs of childcare right now.

The amount of children coming through with SEND has exploded in recent years. We, the staff, are on our knees.
We have in one session 7 out of 17 children with very high needs. Not one of them has got extra funding or support. We will have 3 staff in the room, not from want of trying but there just isn't anyone wanting to work in nurseries anymore.
The staff we do get are young and inexperienced. We're legally meeting ratios but it's not enough.
One child will scream in frustration, one will tip furniture over, one will eat everything they see, one will pour toys/water/sand all over the floor, one will bite people, the other two are quite happy in their own world.
The there's the 10 other children who require interaction too. It's honestly a nightmare. Not to mention all the paperwork that needs doing.
So for those who think the nursery is mean or those who think we have an easy job playing all day, think again.