Naming convicted killers - Brianna

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

...Ghey case. In favour of or against as it impacts their rehabilitation? I'm in favour of it - if you've committed a heinous crime you sign away all your rights to be protected in my opinion - what comes your way and being ousted is part of your lot.... I'm not talking about self defence type, rather premeditated and horribly evil crimes. But I think this should be a consistent theme and not just when some judges decide to....at the momentvits not consistent practice.
Aibu to think it's right to name and shame?

I havent read the whole thread but i have read a few news reports online about the teenagers, that seem to make a big issue of diagnosis of ADHD and ASD. Along with the comments quoted I find this very worrying.... seeming to suggest in an obtuse way that teenagers with MH issues or are neurodiverse are somehow dangerous.
This kind of reporting and attitude cam only cause more stigmatisation, exclusion and bullying towards children and teenagers who are neurodiverse or are suffering with their MH.

@PaperWalkAndTalk it's well known prisoners enjoy watching themselves is it??? How would you know that? Suppose you just made it up to suit your narrative

i have read a few news reports online about the teenagers, that seem to make a big issue of diagnosis of ADHD and ASD. Along with the comments quoted I find this very worrying.... seeming to suggest in an obtuse way that teenagers with MH issues or are neurodiverse are somehow dangerous.
This kind of reporting and attitude cam only cause more stigmatisation, exclusion and bullying towards children and teenagers who are neurodiverse or are suffering with their MH.

Great point @Goinggreymammy There is another thread on here about the parents of these kids with lots of people blaming them for what their kids did. Both that and suggesting there must be MH or ASD issues are ways for people to distance themselves from terrible events and tell themselves it would never happen to them. But both are really wrong in my opinion and experience. And do a massive disservice to the vast majority of people with MH or ASD conditions.

I have to admit, I find it challenging when people are named and shamed when being charged BEFORE going to trial and a verdict being reached.
The "what if they're innocent?" Vs "what it they're not?" tension is very hard to grapple with... if no evidence has heen heard yet etc.
People's lives can be ruined once their name is out there and it feels like "innocent until proven guilty" is a myth. But then.... it can take such a long time to a trial, you don't want to leave other people vulnerable and unaware either. What if they're guilty?
The problem is if charges are dropped the damage is already done and the media are not as prepared to clear someone's name as they are to drag it through the mud.
But in my opinion, once found guilty, it is a natural consequence - losing your right to anonymity.

Oh give over.

There's always one.

You missed my point entirely.

There wasn’t just one child murder in your generation, you just weren’t aware of them. A PP has already posted links evidencing that, so the idea that everything was rosy and it’s all down to the younger generation’s lack of discipline etc is ridiculous really.

I don’t disagree though that phones etc have given kids easy access to horrifying material that clearly desensitises them to violence and causes so many other issues.

I also agree their behaviour during sentencing was appalling, but again don’t think you can generalise this across an entire generation. These are two kids who have just been convicted of an appalling crime, really what did we expect their behaviour to be like? They’re clearly completely disturbed!

There are plenty of issues with parenting today, I’m already worried about how to handle the phones situation when my two are old enough, but my problem with your post is just that, as so many do, you’re generalising and stereotyping an entire generation as lacking discipline as if it was all completely rosy previously, which simply isn’t the case. There are going to be complete lunatics in every generation!

Named child killers of other children are NOT forgotten. In fact they can be remembered long after their victim, eg Mary Bell. I noticed Brianna’s Dad said yesterday he wanted Brianna remembered, not her killers. This now won’t be the case as the media will be obsessed with them and a long way down the line, finding out their new names. However the names were known so difficult to keep a lid on it.

We will see what comes out of the enquiry into who knew what about the murderers. I’m somewhat amazed if the parents did not have concerns and Scarlett was the subject of a managed move already. The accepting school didn’t seem to ask any searching questions. School that got rid maybe wasn’t totally honest. Head of new school seemed to think Scarlett had made a mistake, yet she was in an isolation unit where she met Brianna who was also isolated in it. So both appeared vulnerable and not fully engaging in school life. One wonders if SS had been involved at any time. We shall see.

The parents of the killers will now have a dreadful life. They might well need to move and change names. It’s a life sentence for them too.

I’d be interested to hear more about the needs of the children. As a PP said it seems the offenders and Poor Brianna were vulnerable and I know there has been some talk of additional needs. Simply for understanding I wonder if there will be some psychologist or criminologists (or whatever) looking into their type of crime and how it occurred.

From listening to the mail podcast covering the case some of the interaction between the 2 offenders and the way their crime developed doesn’t seem like the actions of 2 people who behave and think in “normal” (whatever that means) ways. I get the sense that individually they might not have done something like this, yet together the plan somehow moved forward. One being the driver and encourages and the other doing the actual deed (is what it sounded like). What a stupid plan too….how could anybody, even that age, conceive of “getting away” with a crime they committed in broad day light and with all the digital evidence trail they left behind. Again, for the want of a better word, it doesn’t seem the actions of people who are thinking logically or normally. I wonder if there are similarities between their psychology and that of mass shooters in America- there have been a few with lists, and friends helping each other etc.

It feels scary when a crime is so difficult to understand, doesn’t it. Even scarier when it’s children who are the murders.

James Bulger was murdered over 30 years ago, do Thompson and Venables count? It is quite a while ago and things were different I don't imagine they were spending time on smart phones or the internet.

I havent read the whole thread but i have read a few news reports online about the teenagers, that seem to make a big issue of diagnosis of ADHD and ASD. Along with the comments quoted I find this very worrying.... seeming to suggest in an obtuse way that teenagers with MH issues or are neurodiverse are somehow dangerous.

The psychiatrist who originally diagnosed the girl with traits of ASD before the trial has now changed that diagnosis to a "social conduct disorder" ie a type of antisocial personality disorder.

I think the defence were trying to push the traits as somehow they were not thinking 'normally' etc but I have asd and adhd and I know right from wrong and have never considered killing someone. Its actually quite offensive that they were pushing that narrative to be honest.

I think that the public wanted them named. However, I also think that the general public just don't understand these sort of crimes and the psychology behind it. The girl appeared to formulate her own made up identity akin to role playing and was a fantasist. Furthermore she was heavily desensitized by the dark web and was also on drugs. It's very attention seeking behaviour.

I knew a girl at school who was similar. She came from a seemingly loving home, but it later transpired that she had been adopted. Her behaviour gradually deteriorated and she started showing more psychopathic traits in addition to being a controlling bully. By 15 she had gone completely off the rails, bunked school and left with no GCSEs. She was a very bright grade A student. She turned to drugs and developed more obvious mental health problems. She threatened to kill girls she went to school with, got into fights and went on to commit a horrific barbaric murder. She was later diagnosed with a schitzo effective disorder and multiple personality disorder. It transpired that the predronal phase to her mental illness typically begins around 14-15. Kids who do things like this, and adults too, almost always have some sort of mental illness.

I feel very conflicted about the girl that I knew
Part of me has more sympathy towards her, having discovered it the facts about her mental health, part of me regards her as the same psychopathic bully who made my life hell at school. I oscillate between the two. It's very confusing and certainly not straightforward.

I'm not sure that I necessarily believe in the idea of a sentence as a punishment for cases like this. I don't believe that they can be rehabilitated so don't think that they should be released either. Personally I would stick them all on a deserted island in a young offenders institute, whereby they can gradually win back more freedom in order to earn their own keep, but never leave the island.

In the judge's sentencing remarks she appeared to have more faith that Eddie Ratcliffe could be rehabilitated than Scarlett Jenkinson.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

'The psychiatrist who originally diagnosed the girl with traits of ASD before the trial has now changed that diagnosis to a "social conduct disorder" ie a type of antisocial personality disorder."

Unfortunately, it's quite hard to make a formal diagnosis at this age. Many mental illnesses have a predronal phase that starts in teenage years, but doesn't emerge fully until they are 18-21.

They're children, children should never be treated like adults. It also costs a fortune to give people new identities which is what will have to happen if they're ever released.

There is absolutely no deterrent to committing crime in this country, we need something. The belief that you will be caught is a greater deterrent than the existence of the death penalty when you don’t believe you will be caught.

I sincerely hope that she is never released. She has had lots of psychiatric assessments and will have almost certainly have been offered some pretty good counselling and have access to mental health services, yet they found another 'kill list' at her juvenile detention centre, involving staff. If going through the trial, seeing Briana's parents and the impact upon their family and her own and her sentence hasn't made her change her ways, I'm not sure what will.

Unfortunately, there were 3 kids in my class at school who we had pegged as being criminals when they were older. They haven't changed. 1 inside for drugs/burglary charges, 1 for multiple serious gbh and domestic violence and 1 for murder. They were pretty mucked up back in school and set out on an unstoppable route to drink, drugs and crime. Some children unfortunately are too fucked up to change and the juvenile detention and prison system do little to help.

I don't think the general public, and certainly not the British media, have shown that they can be trusted with being allowed to know the names of kids who kill. Everything that's happened as a result of the Bulger killers being named has been deeply unedifying for us as a society.

Ultimately I think the justice system should be geared first and foremost towards potential rehabilitation, especially of minors. Maybe it's possible or not but naming them isn't helpful.

And as for their names allowing us to have a proper conversation about why it's happened... give over. The public discourse in this country about crime and punishment is beyond rudimentary and shows no sign of getting better. Just an excuse for people to shriek hysterically about innate evil while ignoring any root-and-branch changes to any underlying factors.

If she becomes no threat, she should be released. Less than one year in detention with probably little to no therapy isn't going to see any change. I've worked with young offenders and they usually have no mental health services available to them at all.

I don't believe many people are too fucked up to change, but you're right that the prison system doesn't do much to help.

There’s a file on 4 episode about the murder. The killers behaviour is probably one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever heard. Both seemingly from quite ordinary families (doesn’t appear to be any major problems or trauma). The policeman interviewed kept stressing that they were both highly intelligent ‘high functioning’ individuals. You just wonder how they could have developed into such warped individuals. The chances that 2 such warped people found each other is so slim as well.

You have literally no idea what goes on behind closed doors. His father, for instance, is in court later this month for indecent exposure. I know several families who look perfectly lovely to the outside world but are toxic and abusive in private. All families that would be described as normal, loving and nurturing by most people.

Until there is an enquiry where accurate info is digested by experts I’m not listening to what a policeman thinks.

The 999 call was on the Daily Mail website weeks ago, I listened to it, it's awful.

@Rainbowgrey The judge took all that into account. What has that to do with naming the guilty children?