Don’t have more kids if you can’t afford them!

[SportMum1982]

I’m not a raving Tory! But honestly I would have loved more children!!! I would have loved 4 kids but I know we cannot afford 4 kids.

Why do people expect the state to pay for their children? Bar education though! If I’m being really cruel tell me, but I feel I did want more kids but stopped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67999028

It's a punitive policy and there's no evidence it has any significant impact on people's decision making around how many children they have.

If a policy doesn't do what it sets out to do - to change behaviour - then the only point of it is to punish the entire family for a bad decision made by a parent (or a decision that seemed reasonable at the time, but then turned out to be a mistake in retrospect).

The fact that for you the priority is to punish parents, even if it's children who are being damaged by this policy, suggests your compulsion to judge poor people for their life choices trumps your compassion for their children.

Some people are just thick.

"However, there is absolutely no need for anyone to have 5 kids whether they can afford it or not."

If they want them and have both the love and resources to give them, that's reason enough. Whether you think anyone needs 5 children or not, is irrelevant - it's not your family! You do you.

We've heard from people with large families who could afford it at the time, saying they ended up in bad situations as soon as their relationship broke down

I don't think it's helpful to tell people to live their dreams, have a big family and don't worry about reality

Reality is a lot easier if you have fewer children. 5 children is essentially 2-3 families-worth of kids. It's a lot mentally and financially

It is bollocks though. I'm a claimant so I know how it works. You categorically CANNOT choose not to work as a single parent unless you physically can't due to disability. You are required to work at least 30 hours once your youngest is 3. No getting out of it.

"Whatever it is, you can't just have people continuing to have kids that are provided for by the benefit system ad infinitum."

Other countries do, and they're not in a state of social collapse.

The bottom line is that most women voluntarily choose to have small families. In fact women are having fewer children and having them later in life. More and more women are choosing not to have families at alll

We don't need this policy.

"They're just not capable people, nor are they capable parents....as evidenced by the fact that they are having more kids than they can afford."

So people on low incomes who have children and then need to claim housing benefit/UC - ie they're having more children than they can afford without help from the tax payer, they're all bad parents who aren't capable of raising happy, healthy children? So that would be about a third of families.

I understand the need for the money just not why the number of recipients has increased so dramatically, there definitely needs to be some investigation into this, and quickly.

It’s to save money. Y’know, the thing that pays for everything and isn’t infinite?

We have a distant family member who has never worked, has managed to work the system though and now married neither of them have any intention of working. They have two children that the government provides for and are constantly asking on social media for contributions towards things. This will no doubt be a generational thing as the children don’t have any working role models or expectations to work. I honestly can’t see how they get away with this, but they do year after year.
I know peoples circumstances change but people like this who go into having a family with no way of providing for them except for benefits, shouldn’t be allowed.

@Naptrappedmummy rhe public policy belief that the state should provide money to support children is different to that about influencing women’s reproductive choices.

it’s completely different policy goals

you have conflated them

i am not a fan of policy goals that seek to influence women’s reproductive choices punitively (I’m all for greater education)

I am a fan of providing minimum levels of support to children - everyone benefits from this

By the way - this idea that nobody should have children they can't afford - how many people here believe that women living in impoverished countries on low incomes should all voluntarily decide not to have children at all?

1 in 4 of the world's population lives in poverty.

The middle class, middle income women of mumsnet think poor women in the UK and around the world should forgo having children.

It’s more likely to do with domestic policies and funding / taxes

We’re not paying for the whole world

Women living in true poverty in third world countries have little if any access to contraceptives (which here are free and highly reliable) so it’s not a comparable argument

"i am not a fan of policy goals that seek to influence women’s reproductive choices punitively (I’m all for greater education)"

Yup - supporting women in education and employment does wonders when it comes to getting women to voluntarily reduce family size.

"I am a fan of providing minimum levels of support to children - everyone benefits from this"

Yes, me too, but doing this means we forgo the pleasures of metaphorically spitting in the faces of poor women with too many children.

Agree.

Its right benefit is capped at two children. I would have liked more but couldn't afford them. I know people say the children shouldn't suffer but I don't think all people spend the child benefit on their child. I know from experience at work that the benefit goes on the parent in some cases so increasing the child benefit cap would not mean the children would get more spent on them (in some cases).

Overall I resent the amount of benefit people get who have no intention of working and don't contribute to society in a meaningful way. It's not fair on their children and not fair in everyone else who has to pay.

I'm Not talking about people with a genuine disability or who simply cannot get a job or are very low wage.

Yep, the world would be a better place if people stopped assuming that other people should fund their choices @izimbra. Not against helping when life goes wrong, but paying for anyone choosing another baby instead of getting a job is where my sympathy gets worn thin.

There's just no need to have more than 2 kids IMO. The world is already incredibly over populated and that is the root cause of pretty much every environmental problem that exists. Life changes, no one ever knows what the future holds but you shouldn't have more children than you can afford should the worst happen. If you're going to have kids you need to be prepared for their futures not just think 'I want another one'.

Who should then? Would you prefer to live in a society where these children - who didn’t ask to exist - are on the street begging?

"Women living in true poverty in third world countries have little if any access to contraceptives (which here are free and highly reliable) so it’s not a comparable argument"

That's not actually true. There is varied access to family planning services in countries with developing economies.

You think those who do have access to family planning services should forgo having children altogether?

As should UK born women who will need to claim help from the tax payer in the form of UC and housing allowance, because they're on low pay?

Because you do believe that you should only have children you can support without help from the welfare state, yes?

I don't think a single person has said that. People shouldn't expect to have as many children as they want though.

In the UK, we are fortunate to have access to contraceptives and abortion, free education and healthcare too. Bit of a pisstake to compare women here to those living in absolute poverty

"Who should then? Would you prefer to live in a society where these children - who didn’t ask to exist - are on the street begging?"

Yes - yes she would.

I agree with the cap if you keep having children whilst on benefits.

Where I work services are discounted for people on benefits.
A woman came in today with her proof of entitlement which was her UC statement.
It was £3800.00 for the month.
I was shocked. Double than what I take home full time.
She told me she had 8 kids.

The problem we're all discussing here is the two child cap, and the impact of having more that two.

@SockieSockie I agree that 2 dc are easier than 4, but equally I think it would be a sad thing for people not to have the size of family they want, on the off chance that life might go wrong, at some point. Obviously it's a bad idea to have a baby if you are already incapable of supporting them. But where families do already have time and money and the love you give, and have done what they can to mitigate against misfortune (life and employment insurance for example), I think it's fair for them to live the lives they want.

Rather than criticising big families, I think the focus should be on not allowing men to dump responsibility for their dc onto the state or solely onto the mum.

!!!!!!!