Don’t have more kids if you can’t afford them!

[SportMum1982]

I’m not a raving Tory! But honestly I would have loved more children!!! I would have loved 4 kids but I know we cannot afford 4 kids.

Why do people expect the state to pay for their children? Bar education though! If I’m being really cruel tell me, but I feel I did want more kids but stopped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67999028

I also don't get how making children live in destitution is going to break this cycle either.

The money people get from popping out kids for benefits is still a piss in the ocean when you look at what our current government have wasted on their corrupt fraudster buddies

What do you mean specifically?

@Updownleftandright but is it really a drop in the ocean when you look at the social cost? If these children are in a workless household there are knock on effects when it comes to behaviour, which then impacts on education, in the social care system, in the criminal justice system, possibly even in the health system.

If incapable people are having more than 2 kids, it's not just the cost in benefits that society is paying

In South Africa they uses to be good at hauling them to court. Also you could work directly with employer and they would "garnish the wages" so cm would be deducted directly from salary.
The irony is that without migration uk birth rate is too low to self support. Yet the less than rich are punished and ridiculed for having more than 2. So this country wants man power it doesn't have but not immigration or children. It wants parents working and fewer on welfare support but doesn't want to put in place the mechanisms to support people who want to work to do that if when they have challenges.

Something's gotta give

Very very very few would choose to abort at 22 weeks but unless you stick your head in the sand the majority know before 12 weeks and very very few would be oblivious until 22 weeks.

YANBU. They do it because they are selfish and thick (and probably to get as many benefits as possible)

I'm really sorry for what you've gone through. I don't judge you or your ex-partner.

Unfortunately there have always been people who hate the poor and who judge them. My mum was one of three children raised by a young single mum in the 1930's, before the existence of a welfare state and the NHS. Her dad had schizophrenia. They were homeless and horribly poor. My mum is 88 now and still emotionally affected by the shame of growing up in abject poverty. I guarantee her mother was sneered at and judged in the way that women on this thread are sneering at other women raising children in very difficult circumstances. Some people are just horrible unfortunately.

Exactly

It’s not a drop in the ocean at all.

I’m going to put the relevant sums here and let everyone draw their own conclusions.

Universal credit - £80 billion a year
Education budget - £116 billion a year
NHS budget - £168 billion a year
Pensions - £112 billion a year
Defence - £50 billion a year
Cost of living payment total spend - £1.1 billion

Ending non dom status would raise £3 billion a year
VAT on private schools would raise £1.6 billion a year
Total spend on unusable PPE - £4 billion (one amount)

Corruption and waste is an issue but even if we magically erased it all and recouped the losses, how far would it go?

Obviously there are people where circumstances change, and awful lot where they don’t.

I’ve had friends have 4/5 children with completely useless husbands, who have then divorced them and complain how they can’t manage etc. Not huge earners but just wanted lots of children with no thought, especially how they would physically manage all the children as they get older.

I don’t think you can ever properly plan to always afford your children, but I think you should have a fair idea if you can house that many for staters.

Having worked in schools the vast majority I see with 4+ children is when mum has had a few kids, then meets someone new and has a few more. Usually when the older ones are teenagers and quite often messes them up when they are totally pushed aside.

That's not what I said. But globally, yeah there probably are. There's 2 just in her house for starters.

And sent to prison if they persisted in not paying for their children. It's outrageous that the children are living in poverty because some deadbeat dad would rather keep his money for himself.

it is far far less extreme - but it’s on the same spectrum as abortion bans. It’s based on the belief that the state should dictate women’s reproductive choices

Well you could’ve mentioned the fact you meant the entire world, although I’m not sure what responsibility they have towards our welfare budget?

But that's not the issue. I think most of us want the safety net of the state for those eventualities. Those who don't lack imagination and compassion.

It's not taking precautions to limit your family to what you can afford that's the issue.

The benefit cap do you mean?

It's the opposite, though. It's telling women to protect themselves from getting pregnant in the first place if they can't afford a child. It's not dictating reproductive choices, it's expecting adults to behave responsibly.

@Naptrappedmummy yes. Underlying it is the belief that the state should influence how many children a woman has. (And it will be women - the benefit cap disproportionately impacts women).

it’s not that far on this spectrum from chinas one child policy

@MILTOBE yes that’s EXACTLY my point - it’s the state telling women if they should have children - that is literally a reproductive choice

I know the burden of paying for senior citizens is large and growing. However, since auto-enrolment pensions were introduced in 2012 for all businesses, long term, there will be fewer people without any pension income except the SP in future generations. And most middle class people will already have pensions via work or personal provision if they are 40+. The better educated or more organised people of my generation (I'm 67) have been saving for retirement since we were in our early 30s. Which was 10 years before I had my child.

No, it’s the state influencing how many children a woman has to finance herself (or in conjunction with a partner) without state support. A very different thing.

I sometimes wonder if there is anything individuals (and in particular) women are expected to take responsibility for without blaming the state? Literally anything? Because right now I can’t think of a single thing that society broadly agrees is the responsibility of the individual without heavy state involvement.

If you think women have a ‘right’ to pop out as many babies as they like while somebody else picks up the bill, and that that’s remotely fair or sustainable, you live in fairy land

I've worked with disadvantaged children in care for many years. My opinion is that 2 children are enough. Concentrate on quality and quantity. And if your already have children and get into a new relationship don't start a new family with the new bloke.

Not sure that imprisoning men for failure to meet their CM payments is a solution. How much do you think it costs to keep someone in jail? Better to put them on a labour gang building roads.

It is far on the spectrum

Surely we should explore why these are more prevalent?

My son has severe ASD and LD. Haven't claimed DLA yet but in process. Currently still paying for nappies (he's 5) and equipment out of our wages and it's a nightmare. He breaks things a lot too. If he was normal this wouldn't be the case. This is why people get these payments. Disabilities cost more. No holiday club will take him, so will have to find a PA out of our own money too to cover that. Other son's holiday club cost £25 for the whole day. We have to pay someone's full wages or take unpaid leave instead.