To have got rid of DS’s books as a consequence for messing around at bedtime?

[Italianicecream]

Since I had DD 6 months ago DH has been more involved in bedtimes, it used to be really straightforward: milk, bath, teeth and then five books. Sometimes DS would want one or two more but they were all short so I didn’t mind and he’d go to bed nicely.

Now it’s a pain. He insists he wants DH to read to him so I settle the baby while DH reads to DS, but DS just prats about, throws books on the floor, spends forever choosing a story and then doesn’t listen to it just charges around the room, etc. eventually I’m called in and he does settle but generally wants me to read the same books DH did, won’t always go to bed when told, although isn’t too bad.

When it is just me bedtimes are fine so I do think he’s playing is off against one another. I don’t think I dealt tonight well but I got so fed up with the silly behaviour I put all his books in the spare room, chose one book to read to him and said he could choose again when he started behaving. He got really upset and I don’t want to be using books as a sanction but I’m not sure what else to do! (DS is 3.)

Cut the number of books. Have him make the choice before bedtime. Let him pick Mummy or Daddy for bedtime routine. Stick to it. Big fuss in the morning for going to bed like a clever big boy.

He’s seeking attention and he’s found an effective way. He needs another way that feels as effective for him

He was throwing the books. OP is quite right and will gently return them when DS calms down. If your kid doesn’t love books enough to love them if they’re removed, you’re doing it wrong.

If we could stick to the topic which is what to do about it?

These posts are so fucking tiresome and I nearly didn’t post at all because I knew they would happen.

I will have a think. I think we probably do need to be firmer but it’s hard to do so in a way that won’t result in a massive meltdown!

It's too many books, especially if the light is on throughout, as it's not doing anything to wind him down.

One book, two if he's absolutely quiet like a little sleepy mouse in his bed, use a tiny booklight so you can see the page but not keep him wide awake, nothing massively exciting or stimulating. And no, no reading as he's running around dragging things out of drawers.

We've used a positive behaviour chart with DS from just before age 3. We've adapted it to whatever his needs at that time have been. (i.e when is he being a huge pain?)

At one time, bedtime was a nightmare, so his chart had pictures for every step up to bed: pj's on, toilet, brush teeth, walk up stairs, etc. He got a sticker for each thing he did straight away without fuss. When he got 10 stickers, he got a prize - something very small and cheap like a bouncy ball or some bubbles. (we don't ever use sweets as a prize). At the start it was very easy/ quick for him to get a prize if he did everything, and then once he got better at those things, we put them all into one 'get ready for bed' category.

It's worked really well for us and we've adapted it as his needs have changed. So he's had things on there like 'keep safe' for when he'd refuse to hold hands in a carpark, 'wash hands' when he started to refuse to after using the toilet, and 'try new foods' is currently on there.

I note you didn’t bother to comment on the suggestions I have less than two minutes later

Clearly being rude to people is actually more important to you than any help

Because I neither respect or agree with your views. I really do not subscribe to the view that a new sibling is equivalent to death or divorce or something that really is having a world turned upside down - or rather it is initially certainly but we are over half a year later.

When DD was born, DS was a different person. He was still in nappies, still sleeping in a cot, still had a daytime nap and while he had a lot of words was still using them in very basic two and three word sentences. He is a different person now as is she.

I have no time at all for this absolutely toxic view that you have betrayed your first child by going onto have a second. Interestingly it only seems to be first children who are given this luxury. I’ve never seen families with more than two children lectured on what a terrible act of high treason they’ve committed.

You should try having 6. you’d then know what being lectured is like. Especially on here.

But do go on pretending that your child’s life wasn’t turned upside down by the arrival of his sibling if it suits you to pretend that.

Well no, I wouldn’t try having six. How many children you have is irrelevant. You think Ds’s world has been turned upside down. I don’t. I do agree he is being silly for attention. Last night was an exceptionally bad one and normally he isn’t anything like that bad but I do think we have to get control of the situation in a way that preferably doesn’t lead to upset and shouting (from him!)

Telling me ‘his world has been turned upside down’ is just silly hyperbole.

Given you’re so superior to everyone else on here I’m not really sure why you bothered posting.

Do let us know when your book on perfecting parenting is released! Be very interested to read something that goes against the common held belief that a sibling is one of the biggest life changing events for a child!

I’m very far from a perfect parent and I am bit lost as to how you’ve extrapolated that.

But telling me I have ‘turned his life upside down six months after a baby was born is neither helpful nor true. And even if it was true, I can’t put her back and nor would I want to. She is loved and cherished as DS is and we all have to work out how to live as a family. I have some ideas to work with and hopefully all will calm down tonight

He’s not ‘being silly for attention’, he’s 3, he sees his Mummy now spending what was his bedtime routine with the baby. He is jealous or anxious that the baby is now your priority. YOU know that they are both equal but your Ds needs time to u destined the new dynamic.

Yes, you still love him, but how would you feel if your DH introduced a new wife into your household and was spending time with her while still saying he loved you and you are now the special Big Sister Wife?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you shouldn't have had DD or that she should go! It's just that it is a big change and helps understand why your DS is behaving like this. It's not that it's a free pass to misbehave but understanding the motivation behind the behaviour helps fix it.

DS1 is 4 and has definitely tried this sort of thing when DP is around (usually misses bedtime because of work) and it is both understandable (the excitement! DP is here!) and immensely infuriating. I take a harder line than others here because I agree that there comes a point where just because the behaviour is understandable it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

In terms of choosing DS gets an opportunity and if he messes around then I choose. If he's still messing around then either I tell him I'm going to leave to sort out something minor and I expect him in bed ready for books when I get back or I just start reading the book (ostentatiously loudly and slowly) and ignoring the behaviour. DP usually does a "crazy play" thing of a very short duration (like swinging him upside down or something) and is firm after that. He doesn't get the books again even if he's messing about and doesn't hear them properly. Which can lead to him being upset. We generally have an opportunity to reset because we do the gro clock and then he gets two made up stories after that.

DP used to take books off him for misbehaving, which I hated and so we agreed not to do that any more. But he doesn't get more books if he's not enjoyed them because he wasn't listening, and if we're both around he gets to choose who reads him the books and who makes up the stories, and those choices are final.

Get him to pick ONE earlier in the evening and no choice at bedtime.

I have found that my 2yo tends to mess about with my husband like that, when he doesn't with me (in some circumstances). I would say that it's better in the long run for your husband to take back control. You can help him by observing what happens, the way they communicate and how your husband react, and discuss it together.

For instance, I noticed that my husband was often using interrogative tones with our toddler rather than affirmative. So everything is a question that is open for debate, and our son was definitely picking up on this. My husband wasn't aware of this until I told him, and has been working ilon it since.

He's 3. 3 year olds are notorious for mucking around
Give the lad a break

Speak to dh .
How about the parents decide and not ds. One night you settle him and next night dh . Tell your son you won’t both be running in and out the room.
Dh needs to be on board and firm and stick with it . If ds plays up mum doesn’t come running in, dad just says no more stories and turns the light off.

If the books are "that's not my..." or similar they are literally 2 minutes long to read so 5 books sounds fine. If I read stick man before bed then they only get 1 book.
Anyway, the punishment was fine and maybe the next night he'll think twice about messing about instead of choosing his books and listening to the story. At this age the punishment needs to be relevant to the crime which it was so I think it's fine

You seem to be very defensive when people point out that things have changed for your DS since his little sister came along. Nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't have had her or that his life has been ruined by her arrival but surely it wouldn't hurt to try and see things from his perspective a bit more?

DH needs to he firmer in the moment. How does he parent generally and manage misbehaviour? That's all this is, its just that it's happening at bedtime so you're both on eggshells because you dont want it to blow up and encroach on your evening because you are both shattered and at the end of your tether.

You know he doesnt listen to DH because DH passively reads the story instead of addressing the behaviour in the way he/you normally would and DS knows he gets double adult time by not listening then begging for mummy to do it a second time.

As a dynamic, it's got huge potential to make you permanent bad cop. I'm sure you dint think DH is practicing strategic incompetence so a conversation about behaviour management is needed.

Reading this thread, it's made me realise my dd (age 3.5) is actually very compliant at bedtime and I should appreciate it more.

Things that work for us:

Dim the lights down really low, so we can barely read the words.

We have 2-4 books, also of the gruffalo type length. It's my only guaranteed 1-1 time with dd so I don't mind reading this many, I love it. We agree the number just beforehand based on how long she faffs around with her dinner/bathtime "hurry up otherwise we'll only have time for 2 books tonight".

I do let her choose the books usually but if I'm in a hurry I only let her choose the category eg fairy tales or percy the park keeper or Julia Donaldson etc (we have box sets of all those) and then I choose the actual books from in those box sets. Saves a huge amount of time.

I will only read when she's tucked up in bed. If she gets up for any reason, the book gets put down. I try not to get annoyed, I just wait for her to come back.

Every possible physical need is sorted before we start. Last minute wee. Sip of water. Hanky on hand for nose-blowing. Hot water bottle if cold. So she's got no excuse to get up again.

I do agree that your ds is probably playing up because he's not an only child any more. There's no need to get defensive about that. There are ways to address it. For us something that's seriously helped is letting her feel I value/crave/miss 1-1 time with her - which I do! I genuinely say things like "hurry up with your dinner, I can't wait to read with you tonight" and I mean it. Bedtime reading is my favourite time of day, I love cuddling her, doing my funny voices for all the characters, and then tiptoeing out once she's asleep.

The faffing around has to stop, and ideally I wouldn't confiscate books but I probably would have done the same in your situation that day.

My kids love procrastinating at bedtime. I make them get organised earlier in day ie get their water, the specific teddies they want and choose books after dinner. Less to decide on/delay at bedtime.

I do get defensive because of these ridiculous comments equating having another baby to marital infidelity.

I do think the problem is DH (meant nicely!) which is why while I don’t doubt DD’s arrival has caused some upheaval I also think we’d have identical problems if DS had remained an only child and DH had become more involved! I think I’m going to ban DH from bedtime for a while. Honestly when it is just me it’s as smooth as butter and that’s not meant to be unpleasant towards DH, it’s just I think DS likes playing us off against one another.

Intervention doesn’t mean punishment. If he likes to run around, then the stories get read while he is firmly being held on his dad’s lap. If he likes to throw books, then they are kept out of his reach. If he takes ages to choose, then don’t give him a choice. Get a new book, an anthology like the one posted above, and just read stories from that. Maybe get a new nightlight or toy or something, to reset the routine. And make sure DH knows he has to do it all.