To have got rid of DS’s books as a consequence for messing around at bedtime?

[Italianicecream]

Since I had DD 6 months ago DH has been more involved in bedtimes, it used to be really straightforward: milk, bath, teeth and then five books. Sometimes DS would want one or two more but they were all short so I didn’t mind and he’d go to bed nicely.

Now it’s a pain. He insists he wants DH to read to him so I settle the baby while DH reads to DS, but DS just prats about, throws books on the floor, spends forever choosing a story and then doesn’t listen to it just charges around the room, etc. eventually I’m called in and he does settle but generally wants me to read the same books DH did, won’t always go to bed when told, although isn’t too bad.

When it is just me bedtimes are fine so I do think he’s playing is off against one another. I don’t think I dealt tonight well but I got so fed up with the silly behaviour I put all his books in the spare room, chose one book to read to him and said he could choose again when he started behaving. He got really upset and I don’t want to be using books as a sanction but I’m not sure what else to do! (DS is 3.)

@Totallyanonymousplease i don’t think I have a DH problem at all. I am the boring one around all the time, is all. And since DDs arrival DS has been more attached to DH which I sort of expected.

@porridgecake it is undoubtedly a big upheaval.

However. DD is not a newborn, she is six and a half months old, and I am not sure if DS even remembers fully a time when she was not around. Plus, she isn’t going anywhere and for how long do we use this to ignore all bad behaviour? When he starts school? When he’s sitting his GCSEs? I’m not being flippant, it’s a serious question. When do we say OK … DD has been here for some time now, you need to behave yourself.

I know a lot of people on MN do believe we should all only have one child but even if I subscribed to this school of thought she’s here now.

Give him a choice of two books and a sand timer of 20 minutes to read.

Give him 3 books, he can choose two of them. One for dad to read and then the other for you to read. I understand you don’t think he is looking for attention but his behaviour is screaming out that this is exactly what he is doing and having a six month old sibling is a big change because at six months they are not sleepy newborns who do nothing, each stage with siblings brings new challenges. When the baby is 18 months and getting into his stuff and knocking down his buildings or whatever that is another new stage for him to deal with too.

Don’t get drawn into reading endless stories and a long drawn out bedtime because it won’t be long before your baby is a toddler and then you will be reading endless stories and long bedtimes x 2.

He’s only tiny, there’s no need to get caught up in punishments. When you have a new baby it’s easy to see your eldest child as being older than they actually are and expecting too much from them. Could you and DH share bedtimes so your DS is guaranteed to have story time with you at least a few days a week?

Reading to your child is very important and one of the main contributors to future excess (apparently) so I wouldn’t remove that.

He wants you. It won't be like this forever, but he's 3, he's now got to share his parents with a baby sister, and he wants bedtime with you. 3 year olds don't care if you're frustrated. He doesn't even understand why you're frustrated. He's only worried about how he feels. He's doing this for attention, because right now, he's 3 and that's what 3 year olds do. That's how he communicates he's not happy and he wants mummy to do bedtime. You're not the boring one - you're the safe, comforting one because you're the one who is always there.

So to avoid the conflict and reach the end goal of kids in bed, dh sorts the baby out and you do ds.

Taking his books away achieves sod all. He's little more than a baby. They don't understand that because he's not engaged with a story, that now all his books have gone and at some point at the future he might get them back. Read the story to him while he's roaming around the room. Why does he have to be sitting down listening to every word?

I think you both, especially DH, need to find ways to manage the behaviour without resorting to the "big punishment". So for example I would say "choose your books while I put this laundry away", that way he doesn't have your attention while he's choosing, and he's motivated to choose quickly to get your attention back.

Then if he starts messing around, say ok I'm going to clean the bathroom while you decide, let me know when you're ready.

If he's really naughty you could say ok it sounds like you don't want a story so I'm going now, but then let him win the story back by being good.

It's generally more effective to use lots of tiny consequences rather than one big one, and to give lots of chances to undo the consequence through good behaviour.

I would suggest starting bedtime 20 minutes earlier to account for any messing about time, so he will still be in bed at the time you'd like - will help you and dh to remain calm as it doesn't really matter if ds is messing around.

My 3 year old has phases of being very silly at bedtime and he is the littlest one so can't even blame it on a new baby - just being three! I think sometimes you need to really change up the routine to kind of break the messing about habit. So decide on a really new routine that would work for you (perhaps involving alternating who does bath/books so he gets one of you for each activity on alternating nights). I would then keep talking to him all day and reminding him what the new routine will be so he's ready for it - I ask questions so I'm sure he's listened, "can you remember who's doing your stories tonight?". Then stick with it even if he tantrums. I normally pick my DS's books for him as he sometimes finds it hard to choose, but he can swap if he asks nicely. We do 4 books (like you they are pretty short) as I think it's easier to understand that we do 2 then 2 more - he can count to five fine but I think keeping track to 5 when he's tired might be tricky! I also let him do a few minutes mad running about after bath as that sometimes helps get the crazies out! Can do a timer or something so he knows when it's over. Like a PP if he's messing around I would leave the room (taking the book with me if he's throwing it) and say I'll come back when you're ready to listen nicely. But I would always do my best to end happily reading all the books unless we got into a tired tantrum that was only going to end by going to sleep (which has happened a few times definitely). I think starting the bedtime routine early is key though so you have time to do all this without stressing that it's getting later and he's getting more and more tired - ours always goes worse when we're rushing.

I'm making it sound easy and it's really not. We still have our share of bad bedtimes and just when you feel you have cracked it then it goes difficult again. And I think it's very easy for people to say "be firm" but when you have a tantruming toddler and it's getting later and later it's hard to know what's best to do.

Get him to pick the 5 books earlier in the evening, maybe at the start of the bedtime routine.

5 stories, regardless of who reads them. Once they're done, use a visual cue like putting them in a pile on the other side of the room, and a verbal one - ok, three more stories until lights out!

@MintTwirl no, you misunderstand me a bit.

I completely agree he is attention seeking but I think he is ruling the roost too much because neither DH and I want a big meltdown at bedtime for a whole host of reasons. Knowing a child is attention seeking doesn’t mean you shrug and say in effect ‘oh well get on with it then.’ (I know you weren’t suggesting this.)

@Elfyny it isn’t quite that simple. If he just wanted me to read to him I’d honestly happily read him ten. But he doesn’t. I am first screamed at to go away, then the books are thrown around, then he charges around ignoring DH, then he demands me. I can’t totally ignore that. If he was just asking for me to read to him it would be totally different.

I will have a think. Clearly a different approach is needed but I got annoyed tonight and reacted emotionally rather than calmly.

Overtired and attention seeking at bedtime is not when a love of books is made or lost.

I agree that throwing books shouldn't be tolerated. It's just a difficult one because little children can feel desperate in the evenings and act out as a result.

Keeping a routine, keeping them updated and in agreement about the routine, and a little bit of leeway here and there for reasonable requests was what got me through it.

I'm not underestimating how difficult it is, if it comes across that way. I was ready to scream several times during bedtime when DS was little.

I think reducing the amount of books to choose from is a good idea. That much choice can be overwhelming to a three year old. But I think it's important not to use books as a punishment.

Would something like getting a fresh set of X number of books for good behaviour be a more positive approach that might work for him?

isn’t quite that simple. If he just wanted me to read to him I’d honestly happily read him ten. But he doesn’t. I am first screamed at to go away, then the books are thrown around, then he charges around ignoring DH, then he demands me. I can’t totally ignore that. If he was just asking for me to read to him it would be totally different

Why can't you ignore that though? Why can't dh do some up till the point ds is asking for mummy, then you swap over? Surely that's the easiest way to get both kids sorted with minimum fuss? What's dh doing while ds is charging around the room? Id just get on with reading the story, whether he's listening or not. He's then not getting attention for charging around the room, the story is still getting read and he might just sit down and listen.

You may not feel like doing bedtime, it might make you angry and frustrated that dh can't just get it done, and that ds is being "naughty". But at the end of the day your 3yo hasn't got the language to express what he needs apart from "daddy" or "mummy". So you kind of have to suck it up, plaster on a smile, get the child in bed and escape downstairs asap and heave a big sigh.

It might be the 5 book thing isn't working for him anymore. Maybe he needs to know that daddy will read 3 books, then mummy will do 2 songs, then it's sleep time, or whatever. Sometimes you can't enforce your ideal routine on him if it's not what he wants.

My kids have adhd and asd and i learnt very slowly and painfully to give in on the things that don't really matter, and to be flexible about responding to the individual child's needs as they present themselves - whether it's fair to me or not that I've done bedtime 3 times in a row, whether I'm angry or not. It goes against everything in me that just wants to shout "will you just get in bloody bed and go to sleep!". I'm very far from Flop. But this is what has worked for me and my kids are much older than yours.

The frustrating thing is that when it’s just us and DH is at work all goes fine. Me doing the bedtimes alone wouldn’t work either, I am actually considering sending DH to the pub for an hour but of course that isn’t a solution really (DH would probably enjoy it though!)

@Elfyny i really honestly don’t want to sound horrible here but I’ve explained why. If he read (say) Gruffalo and Bear Hunt with DH then wanted me for Stick Man, Dogger and Giraffes Can’t Dance that would be fine and in fact very welcome.

But what actually happens is no end of messing around with DH, giggling, charging around his room, throwing books, trying to empty drawers. After that, he finally chooses books he doesn’t listen to and continues messing around. Then he asks for me So it isn’t just that he has daddy for some books then mummy for some, that would be absolutely fine.

Bedtimes in my house go much smoother if only one parent does it (we alternate nights), if we swap during the bedtime routine there is more messing about.

If my child gets up or messes around while I'm reading I stop reading, only start again once settled. Three warnings then book is put away, this rarely happens. If a book is thrown then it is removed but others not.

Clear boundaries and consistency help. 3 year olds can be tricky and frustrating but it will get better.

You might have to have a melt down on one night to stem the tide (so to speak). But it will be better in the long run.

I would suggest at breakfast you let DS chose his bedtime book (just one) and then let him know you will chose a second book if he sits quietly and listens nicely to book one. Remove all books from his room and keep them by the breakfast table.

Then start teaching him about ‘this is a choice’ and ‘this is not a choice’ activities..so that he starts to learn when he just has to do what he is told, and when he can take some time and ‘be three’ about choosing. Practice lots of moments in the day when ‘this is a choice’. Eg which plate to eat his toast on (when you have plenty of time) and ‘this is not a choice’ putting on shoes before going outside. Once he understands that you will let him have a choice on somethings, and tell him, then he will likely become more compliant (less tantrummy) when its not a choice

So to get back to bed time.. some days who puts you to bed ‘is a choice’ as Mum and Dad will both be around at bedtime and some days ‘it is not a choice’. You can tell him at breakfast each day when he is picking his bedtime book.

Then DO NOT waver from what you say. If he picks a book at breakfast time do not let him change his mind (he can pick another book tomorrow, or maybe you will pick the one he changed his mind to, if he sits and listens nicely). Everytime you let him change the rules, you have taken a step towards a tantrum. Everytime you hold firm, you have taken a step towards a child who can roll with the punches.

If he read (say) Gruffalo and Bear Hunt with DH then wanted me for Stick Man, Dogger and Giraffes Can’t Dance that would be fine and in fact very welcome

All of those books are very long. Great books, but it must take ages to get through that lot. I would cut it down to 2 or 3, again leaving more time for any potential messing around which will hopefully reduce your stress levels.

It's not clear to me, have you ever said to ds that it's ok if he wants both of you to read to him, daddy will do a book, mummy will do a book then it's sleep time?

If that was pre arranged before you get anywhere near bedtime, maybe he wouldn't feel the need to escalate things at bedtime in order to force you to get involved.

He's figured out this method works to get both parents to share bedtime. Spell it out to him that both of you will be involved in bedtime, and how. I expect he would no longer feel the need to play up to attract you to the room if he knew you were going to be there in 5 minutes to read his second story.

Then DO NOT waver from what you say. If he picks a book at breakfast time do not let him change his mind (he can pick another book tomorrow, or maybe you will pick the one he changed his mind to, if he sits and listens nicely).

So you always know at breakfast time what you'll fancy watching in the evening or reading at bedtime?

How will it benefit the 3 year old child to hold him to a choice he made hours and hours earlier?

Could he be demanding that your DH starts off the bedtime routine only because he knows that way he gets an extended bedtime with the both of you, as you will always come in afterwards to repeat the process?

I also agree with pp that his behaviour stems from not being the centre of attention anymore and now bedtime is his chance to secure the both of you for 121 time. It's not about the books, it's about him wanting attention (which is absolutely normal and to be expected). So punishing him for that normal emotionally healthy expectation is misplaced - i'm not judging you here, i have a 3 year old who has been very challenging since his baby sister arrived 3 months ago!!

However, i do agree that throwing books and being rude needs to be addressed and you're right to want to set a boundary with him. Just not sure removing books (which represent his special 121 time) is the right message here. Perhaps just stop reading the book anytime he misbehaves and explain you will need to leave the room if he continues?

5 books is too many, and too much choice for a 3 yo. That is the sort of indulgent PFB bedtime routine that is unsustainable as PFB grows and you have more babies, as you are now seeing!

Simplify the bedtime routine and try to take it in turns with DH so that DS doesn't feel he's "lost" his nice bedtime with mum to the new baby.

5 books seems a lot to read at bedtime!

Mine has 2 bedtime stories which she picks, takes about 5/10 minutes depending on the length, she then gets a kiss and cuddle then left to go to sleep.

If she starts jumping on her bed or messing around during storytime she gets 1 warning then no stories if she carries on.

Also either me or DH put her to bed, not both as she would just get overexcited. One parent gives her a big kiss and cuddle and the other takes her up.

I'd cut the number of books down to 2 and make him pick them prior to bedtime or give him just a few choices.

5 books!! far too many, we always had 2 and if they didnt sit down and listen then no stories and lights out

His life has been turned upside down by the arrival of his sibling.

He now has to share your attention with your DD and he’s found a very effective way of getting lots of attention from you both at bedtime.

We had this a bit after 2nd born. Cut stories right down to 1 (although we weren't doing quite so many before so maybe 2 in your case as pp suggested), choice was made within time DH took to put on night light etc to ready room for bed and otherwise DH chose, any messing around and story stopped for that night and it was sleep time. No deviation, just very clear rules that were enforced. It sorted itself out pretty quickly. Good luck!