To think this poo situation is just ridiculous now?

[Alittlebitwary]

Posting here for traffic to see if anyone else has any experience of the same, as I'm at the end of my tether with this and literally don't know what else I can do.

My 4yo just will do anything to avoid doing a poo.
Potty training was fine, this started sometime between age 2 and 3. She holds it to the point it starts to come out, so gets poo in her knickers, but won't go to the toilet. She will cross her legs, crouch on the floor, and though clearly desperately holding it in she flatly denies needing a poo.
We sit her on the toilet and she screams her head off saying she doesn't need one, despite the repeated pooey knickers. She'll then go off and play, then repeat. More pooey knickers and toilet refusal. I'm absolutely sick to death of it now.

We've tried everything.
Poo apps recommended by HV.
Ignoring and letting her lead (she then holds so long - days - that it's eventually painful when she finally does do one then is even more avoidant).
Forcing her to the loo (she refuses)
putting games and toys in the loo to keep her there / make it relaxed (she just plays and no poo comes out)
Positive reinforcement, sticker charts, rewards. Huge praise for every poo.
Also tried not making a fuss so she didn't stop doing it just because she wasn't getting a fuss.
Increased fluids and fruit.
We make doing a poo part of bedtime routine and sit her on the toilet every night before bed.
We often have to spend 15 mins making her laugh to get her to relax enough to poo.
She ALWAYS denies needing to go, even while she's doing one!
However, occasionally she takes herself off to do one, and gets on with it no problem. I have no idea why sometimes she can and sometimes she can't.

We saw GP when she was 2 or 3 and she's been on laxido daily ever since and the poos are always soft now. It's possible she was constipated at one point and had a painful poo.

The thing is, we'll go round in circles having a period where she's going on her own no problem, every day with no issues!! and then suddenly there'll be another period where she is constantly holding and it's a constant battle to get her to be regular.

I am absolutely sick to death of the pooey knickers and her little sister is starting to copy this behaviour and I just can't!

She's at school now and comes home with poo knickers on the regular and she gets a sore bum.

Help me Mumsnet!!

Sorry if I've missed that you've tried this. And huge sympathy for such a difficult situation.
Could the loo be the problem, and perhaps a return to the potty might help.

My daughter was exactly like this! She's 6 now and absolutely fine. She'll grow out of it. We used to say to her "you don't want your friends and teachers to say you smell of poo do you?" And that seemed to help, she didn't want to embarrass herself.

Thank you. I've no idea if the potty would help - we have several for my youngest, who ironically prefers the toilet from watching her sister! Could try it. X

Maybe try a loo seat insert so she feels more secure? Blowing bubbles on the loo can help too.

We thought she'd cracked it when she started school. She went a good few weeks totally clean not long after starting. We were made up! We put it down to watching her peers go etc, but lo and behold it's started again now for no apparent reason.

I don't even know if there is any point seeing the GP again as it's clearly behavioural! I don't know who else to ask for help managing it!

Much like the bubbles - Blowing up a balloon on the loo

We have reducer seats at home, she often prefers without because she's a "big girl". We've tried blowing bubbles, blowing mummy and daddy away, and often spend ages doing "silly things" to make her laugh which is normally what gets it out on a night! X

We give my 4yo the iPad to watch Netflix while on the toilet. It helps her relax, she's happy to need a poo, gives me a 15 min break.

Definitely a new one to try, thanks!

Have you spoken to ERIC? https://eric.org.uk/childrens-bowels/

Have you considered she's constipated? That makes it much more painful and more likely to affect her desire to go.

Same for dehydration - can cause a huge problem. I struggled with this aged 10-12, but I spent my youth thirsty as my family didn't believe in drinking much (despite the amount of sports and exercise I was doing). I now carry drinks just about everywhere I go!

Could it be something physical as in she isn't feeling the sensation correctly. I'd try your gp again.

I would still question a physical issue and whether she's getting constipated, especially if it goes in waves. She could have a dairy allergy which causes constipation in the week after a day consuming a higher amount for example.

Does it embarrass her? I know this might seem obvious and you could well have done this, but have you explained to her that everyone does it and it’s normal, and that if she doesn’t go she will be poorly because it’s her body’s way of trying to get rid of bad germs?

I had to have a similar conversation with my nephew as my sister was at a loss. In the end I had a conversation with him and said if he didn’t go he would get ill and that seemed to work.

Try some children’s books about pooing? That make it into a fun thing?

Something like this?

I'd be getting her to clean her own knickers, to see if that helps.

So, have her help to fill a bucket with water, put in the sterilising solution and put the dirty knickers in there. Then get her to help wring them out and put them in the washer.

DS used to have terrible aim but then I just got him to do the majority of the clean up around the toilet, which resulted in improvement.

Might be worth a try to see if it helps.

Omg you've described my child! She had a couple of hard poos around 1.5-2, then refused to poo. She had a phobia and hide to hold it in. At first it would fall out in her sleep or the bath, then they became smaller and less frequent. Eventually she was only going once a week, and it would be huge. She ended up with a mega colon and in hospital. She lost the ability to know when to poo. We ended up on a cocktail of drugs for adults (for after their chemo) to help. She is now 10 and can finally go to the toilet and poo. She's on one medication still. I found using califig mixed with kefir really effective, i also rate magnesium salts in the bath. Smiling at her while she's pooping seemed to have helped. Weird I know, but my child said she hated seeing my facial expressions when pooping. She thought I was frowning because i didn't like her pooping. But I was stressed, because I was trying to help her go to the toilet.

You've got my sympathy OP.

My GC coming up to 7 has exactly the same issues.

Her issues started when she was pretty much "forced" out of nappies by the nursery aged 3.

I have personal experience of this which left my 10 year old hospitalised. If you are on Facebook Parents against Miralax group is so informative and has helped us way more than any of the consultants/GP’s every did. Please try and address it asap as it’s most likely impaction and constipation which can get pretty bad as unfortunately we learnt

We had a wooden treasure box with nice chocolates in shiny papers, or chocolate coins to look like treasure. He only ever got one for doing poos in the potty (or loo in your case). Pure bribery, but it worked when nothing else did.

My son went through this and is now 23 and doing graduate medicine (only sharing that to show there is life after).

We used to pay for poos - he had a tin which he used to save the money in.

He at one point was on lactulose, senna and even at one stage a drug to make him relax (can't think of just now). This was after not going for over 3 weeks.

It was an awful time and I don't know why he did it and then I can remember what changed.

But he's fine now and it will pass.

Oh OP I feel for you.
Go back to your GP and get a referral to a specialist continence clinic. I suspect, as pp have said, she’s almost certainly constipated and has probably lost the sensation of needing to poo, which is caused by exactly the cycle you’ve described. Please don’t shame her for what is a medical issue she has no control over.
I don’t know if it’s still in vogue, but it took a good 12 months of movicol to sort my son out, it really saved my sanity.

Also just to let you know, the soiling means she is constipated. So you'll need to increase your dose of movicol.

No wisdom, just sympathy and watching for tips. My 3 year has been like this for 6 months and I hate it. So fed up of more dirty pants to clean.

No experience like that here but I note she is 4 years old. I understand why you want her toilet trained but is there any reason you cannot simply put her back into nappies and leave her with that for the meantime combined with diet changes to ensure she is not constipated.
Once she gets to school you might find the peer pressure eventually means she is asking you for help to toilet train herself? Having said all this I am no expert and I do not know what the schools view on this might be.

Mr Poo goes to Pooland.

Pdf story is free on the internet.

Sorry OP, in a rush but you have my sympathies, this worked for DS.

Have you seen Poo Goes To Pooland online? This helped when DS was 4 and had a one-off mega poo which resulted in him being terrified of the toilet for months.

Also, contact the charity ERIC for advice.