To think this poo situation is just ridiculous now?

[Alittlebitwary]

Posting here for traffic to see if anyone else has any experience of the same, as I'm at the end of my tether with this and literally don't know what else I can do.

My 4yo just will do anything to avoid doing a poo.
Potty training was fine, this started sometime between age 2 and 3. She holds it to the point it starts to come out, so gets poo in her knickers, but won't go to the toilet. She will cross her legs, crouch on the floor, and though clearly desperately holding it in she flatly denies needing a poo.
We sit her on the toilet and she screams her head off saying she doesn't need one, despite the repeated pooey knickers. She'll then go off and play, then repeat. More pooey knickers and toilet refusal. I'm absolutely sick to death of it now.

We've tried everything.
Poo apps recommended by HV.
Ignoring and letting her lead (she then holds so long - days - that it's eventually painful when she finally does do one then is even more avoidant).
Forcing her to the loo (she refuses)
putting games and toys in the loo to keep her there / make it relaxed (she just plays and no poo comes out)
Positive reinforcement, sticker charts, rewards. Huge praise for every poo.
Also tried not making a fuss so she didn't stop doing it just because she wasn't getting a fuss.
Increased fluids and fruit.
We make doing a poo part of bedtime routine and sit her on the toilet every night before bed.
We often have to spend 15 mins making her laugh to get her to relax enough to poo.
She ALWAYS denies needing to go, even while she's doing one!
However, occasionally she takes herself off to do one, and gets on with it no problem. I have no idea why sometimes she can and sometimes she can't.

We saw GP when she was 2 or 3 and she's been on laxido daily ever since and the poos are always soft now. It's possible she was constipated at one point and had a painful poo.

The thing is, we'll go round in circles having a period where she's going on her own no problem, every day with no issues!! and then suddenly there'll be another period where she is constantly holding and it's a constant battle to get her to be regular.

I am absolutely sick to death of the pooey knickers and her little sister is starting to copy this behaviour and I just can't!

She's at school now and comes home with poo knickers on the regular and she gets a sore bum.

Help me Mumsnet!!

I would recommend getting the gp to prescribe 1 sachet laxido a day so her poos are soft enough to come out without pain and gove rewards to encourage her to sit on the toilet 30mins after eating when she is most likely to poo. Soiling sounds like potential constipation overflow. Put a box of toys by the toilet she only use when she's sitting on the toilet. See if HV can refer you to children's continence team if there's one in your area.
Good luck!

We went through this, almost exactly the same timing as well with our daughter. It was awful. We tried all sorts and had the whole laxido thing as well. Eventually I got a really sympathetic GP. My daughter was prescribed senacot which she took just before bed and then we had daily 'toilet fun time' which involved making sure she had a comfy seat on the loo, a still under her feet and her kindle with games on. The idea was to take all the stress out of it and relax her. Within a week there was an improvement, within a month she was fine. We've noticed if a change is coming up - even if it is something exciting eh. School holidays then her bowels can go a bit funny for a week. Nowhere near as bad as it was. She doesn't need any medication but she does sometimes still get toilet fun time. She has a daily glass of fresh orange as well. She is nearly 8 now but we had real issues for a year so I really do feel your frustration. But maybe worth asking GP about sennacot (might be spelled senokot) and getting it as least stressy as can be.

“It will pass.”! 😂

Stool under feet not still that was an autocorrect error.

Feel free to DM me if you want any more chat, from all your replies it really does sound exactly what we went through.

She's 4 !! Thats verging on child abuse !

I am wondering whether my DH has joined MN as this is our 4 year old DD to a tee.

Currently waiting for referral to the continence team.

No pearls of wisdom, but you do have my up most sympathy.

Sending cuddles and strength as it is absolutely exhausting.

This must be so frustrating. I worked with children for a long time, and it can be a 'thing'. Some youngsters fear pooing on the toilet because, it is thought, that the flushing away makes them feel as though they are losing part of themselves., on the times that she can go successfully, it might be the slow steps forward. I do think going back to the potty, make her feel safe again, then, once relaxed 'normal' pooing has been consistently achieved, have her become consistently part of the process of tipping it into the loo, then once this step is taken and hasn't negatively impacted her toileting, then involve her in the flushing away. By breaking it down into tiny steps, it will be easy to see if and where a problem might lie. It could all be achieved in a couple of weeks. If she chooses to go back to the toilet before you reach the end, go with it, as you may have resolved it earlier than expected. Good luck

I did this as a kid. My sister had told me all about the toilet snakes. It went on for months and drove my poor mum mad with pooey knickers. It was only when she found the 6 year old me taking a shit in our shrubbery that she figured out what as going on. I don't know if the NHS recommends watching your teenage sister getting a shoe flung at her as she tries to nonchalantly saunter upstairs when the words toilet snakes first leave your mouth but they should it seems to have surprising efficacy as a laxative.

I don't have any proper advice but wanted you to know that it will pass and one day you'll look back on the absurdity of it.

I'd be getting her to clean her own knickers, to see if that helps.

This is exactly something an adult would be recounting in therapy after they've gone NC with their mother. Making a 4 year old scrub poo off their knickers as punishment for not being potty trained...jesus christ in heaven.

OP we had exactly the same problem for years and tried everything on your list. DD was a diaper pooper and would refuse to sit on the potty or loo until she was almost 5. If wearing knickers she would just hold it in or soil it slightly but adamantly refuse to poo. Her record was 5 days in a row and the average was 2-3 days despite clearly needing to. Our entirely lives revolved around her poo schedule and just like your title, it was ridiculous!

If it's any consolation, she grew out of it literally overnight. Was shortly before her 5th birthday. She did a poo sitting down after lots of encouragement. I definitely found that keeping it relaxed and low key worked much better than talking about poos or me hovering around her potty. The next few days were tricky because she went back into the habit of withholding and wanted a diaper or jumped around refusing to poo. But it was similar to weaning, I had to stand my ground and refuse to let her go back to diapers. A week after that and everything was normal. We let her sit and watch videos or play games on the ipad whenever we see she might need to go (wriggling a bit, after meals etc). She's by herself in the corner with some privacy and will poo without problems almost every single day.

She was also on Movicol for almost 2 years. In my experience, that frequently leads to pooey knickers and uncontrollable "mini" bowel movements. Some people firmly believe that staining means they are constipated and keep upping the dose (which may be the case with some kids). However we noticed that when she did go, her bowel movements looked fairly normal and not like she wasn't getting everything out. So what worked best for us was weaning her off Movicol. I gave her all the raw fruits she liked to eat, especially things like apples, pears, strawberries and mango. Mixed wholegrain pasta with normal pasta to disguise the taste a bit. Lots of water and cutting back on dairy products.

Whenever she was off Movicol, she never had pooey knickers. Movicol also gave her tummyaches at times so she would eat less. It was a devilish cycle. If we hit a "good phase" where she was off Movicol and pooing normally then it was easier to get her to eat more fruits and fibre which contributed to more normal poos. The opposite was also true...she'd start withholding and get constipated and lose appetite for natural remedies and we'd have to start Movicol.

So in any case, there is hope. She really just grew out of it. Wait until she's 5 and see if anything changes. Children's brains mature a lot between 5-6 and one day she might just decide it's not worth her time. Adjust her diet as much as possible in preparation to wean off Movicol. As soon as she begins pooing regularly, try keeping it only diet based and leave out stool softeners.

Sorry no advice but solidarity as we are going through the exact same with our 2.5 year old DD, she is still in nappies though. GP has referred us to the continence clinic so we’re just waiting for the call.
Just wanted to say thank you to all who have replied on this thread with helpful suggestions 💙

My DS 5 has some issues with doing a poo. He tries to stop it by wriggling on his belly. He's done this for 2 years but he does a daily poo like your DD so no constipation. He's told me more recently that he does not like the feeling of doing a poo, he has some sensory aversions and this is one and I don't think it's that uncommon for children to dislike the feeling.

I have never forced him to sit on the loo tbh as I worry that would make it worse. So I just ask him to tell me when he needs to go. Eventually he does but we have had several poo accidents when out and at school where he's not been able to stop it by lying on his tummy. I try to be very matter of fact about it and not make a big deal about it.

I would be more concerned if he was able to stop the poo for days and lead to impaction but as he does a daily poo eventually I am less concerned with a physical problem. I just don't want to make it a bigger psychological issue.

Same!

Alittlebitwary · Today 19:26

Ah I see thanks for the update.

You have my full sympathy, I recall toilet training and it was super hard, although I never went through your particular scenario.

I feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea of you getting her to wash her own knickers etc like some other posters are suggesting. I remember my own mum making me do that when I was ill with a tummy bug and it did feel abusive by my mum.

Do you think ignoring it might help (hence the nappies) even if she is still resistant to pooping and tries to avoid it/keep it inside rather than let it out etc, if she is in a nappy then at least you won't have to constantly be washing her clothes and eventually she might think i don't want to wear nappies any more they feel too baby-ish and you can say "well you can only wear pants if you can prove to me you can ask to go to the toilet before you actually do a poo" or some such? Then just ignore it.

When it is something psychological I do often wonder whether some kids get there in their own timing and nothing you do or don't do will necessarily hasten it or slow it down if you see what i mean? If you know for certain she is not in pain (eg constipated) and does not have any shame based association with doing a poo then could you not just ignore it as a thing?

@Alittlebitwary just read your post about your needing to encourage her to do a poo everyday and the problems evolve if you don't, but that she is better if you ignore the issue. Why don't you reduce how often you encourage her to alternate days, a poo every other day should be enough to avoid constipation and it's takes a bit of pressure off and allows her a bit of space to maybe see if she initiates it on the other days.

OP I know exactly how frustrating this is and how it dominates your life, my daughter suffered with encopresis but we didn't know that's what it was, her symptoms sound similar to your daughter although she didn't show signs of needing the toilet. The GP thought she was witholding due to anxiety as it started around the time she started school, we never thought that was right as she wasn't an anxcious child, we eventually saw a specialist who diagnosed encopresis and advised a big clear out using movicol and then daily movicol after that. She was on movicol for about 2yrs and there were a few big clear outs in that time but it worked and was genuinely life changing. Just wanted to say there is light at the end of the tunnel, good luck.

Do you have a step or steps so she can be in more of a squatting position?

These are mine. They're height adjustable. They put your body in the best position and it's much easier to go

Here they are in use.
Well. Not in use! I'm not sharing that sort of photo!! I've just given you how it looks when your feet are on them. I am fully clothed, nothing is happening. The seat isn't even up! (If you turn out to be the poo troll I'll be very cross indeed 🤣)

I'd recommend them for everyone tbh.

We had similar. Movicol really helped. The disimpaction regime and then enough to keep her regular.

for us it was a combination of chronic constipation caused by not drinking enough (they need 1.5-2 litres a day) and also fear of discomfort, and reluctance to interrupt what she was doing.

i read a lot about the psychology of incentives and bribes - summary is is has to be immediate to the behaviour you want and repeatable.

so a sweet or chocolate button after every poo, not stay clean all week and you’ll get to choose a toy (she regress once she’s got the toy)

I agree going back to the potty might help - better position- or a good trainer seat and a stool. For all of us our knees should be above our hips when we’re on the toilet.

and last, build sitting on the toilet or potty into your routine for the day.

About 20 mins after dinner is a good time. so she’s not interrupting her play, we sit on the loo for 5-10 mins and have a story or watch an episode of Peppa or Bluey everyday.

and rewards that - the sitting on the loo, even if she doesn’t go, to build the habit and break down her resistance to it. Give an extra reward if she does goes.

we got through a lot of chocolate buttons getting out of our issues but we did get there eventually

she was on moviocl for 3 years and had a chocolate button after doing a poo for a similar length of time!

Both mine have had this. My 9 year old is fine and it's all long forgotten by about 5 years old. My 4 year old is still well in it. Today's pants are soaking as we speak!! He just holds it until its too late, every day. Comes home from school having sat in it about 3 times a day. Was perfectly well toilet trained by 2 1/2. I think he is just too busy and stimulated by school and too tired when he gets home. It'll pass I'm sure xx

To add my DD is speech/development delayed. Pull ups in bed are her happy place. We could literally be out and at 5.30 she will say that she's tired, which means "I need a poo and need to get in top bed".

We tried taking the pull ups away but after 3 nights of literally no sleep and utter devastation we had to give in.

Another one is she gets really fidgety and constantly pulls her trousers up and complains constantly they are falling down.

I just don't know what to do.

I was going to mention this. I had a friend growing up that was exactly the same. Nothing at all wrong with her, she just refused to stop what she was doing to go. We played outside a lot at my house which I think contributed as well, though she did it everywhere. She’d crouch down and sort of clamp up and wait until it passed. Her parents were taking the “just ignore it and she’ll grow out of it” route.

What actually ended it was my parents. They gave her the option of going to the bathroom or going home. The first time my mother grabbed her hand and started marching her off before she gave in, but after that they simply had to call out “Jane, are you going to the loo or going home?” and she’d reluctantly stop playing and rush in. She knew the fun was going to stop one way or another so she just got on with it to avoid being sent home. It only took a week or two before she just gave up and stopped holding it altogether. I remember her parents bringing over a couple bottles of wine to thank mine.

I had this issue as a child. That was the early-mid 80s and I have to say I don’t think it was handled well by the GPs and consultants I saw at the time. I ended up in hospital for a week at one point under observation and taking daily medicines which I hated (no idea what they were). At the time (from potty training up to about age 6-7) I very much had the sense that this was my fault. That it was a behaviour I was choosing (this was the message I absorbed from overhearing conversations between my Mum and the consultant).

None of us understood it at the time but my take on it now as an adult and having read around the subject, is that the initial cause was probably physical- constipation most likely- resulting in a painful or difficult time going to the loo which then made me fearful and ashamed of having to go for a poo. The whole idea of it became completely taboo and disgusting. My memories of the time include a lot of shame, because unfortunately I was still having accidents for a time after starting school and although I had some lovely friends, there were obviously reactions from other classmates.

Actually shuddering writing that all out- it’s hard and embarrassing to talk about, but what I’m saying is that it seems to me that it often becomes a psychological issue which needs careful handling. I came out of that phase eventually- don’t know what the catalyst for that was, but even as an adult, I have issues with poo! Have a very slow and shy bowel so I have to be sure to get plenty of fibre and try to plan my ‘movements’ (which isn’t easy) because I can’t go anywhere other than my toilet at home!

I wish I could give some useful advice but just to say- as a parent myself, I can see how exasperating it is for parents and I look back and feel so sad for my Mum who was working full time and then trying to deal with my issues while also looking after her dying father who lived with us! It’s no wonder I witnessed her frustration at times, but it probably added to my sense of shame about it all. So just tread carefully, she will come through it. I second the suggestion to get in touch with ERIC- which they’d been around when I was a child! Also don’t be afraid to go back to the GP though- they can and do refer for psychological issues too, although I imagine waitlists are long. Best of luck 💐

Children shouldn't blow up balloons as it is a choking risk.

Deflated balloons are not for children.

Our daughter held her poo. It was hands down the most stressful period of parenting!
We tried everything. Nothing worked. The HV suggested buying different colours of toilet duck (blue, green, pink) and tubes of glitter. So when she did a poo, she got to make the toilet bowl a riot of rainbow and glitter. And it actually worked.