To think this poo situation is just ridiculous now?

[Alittlebitwary]

Posting here for traffic to see if anyone else has any experience of the same, as I'm at the end of my tether with this and literally don't know what else I can do.

My 4yo just will do anything to avoid doing a poo.
Potty training was fine, this started sometime between age 2 and 3. She holds it to the point it starts to come out, so gets poo in her knickers, but won't go to the toilet. She will cross her legs, crouch on the floor, and though clearly desperately holding it in she flatly denies needing a poo.
We sit her on the toilet and she screams her head off saying she doesn't need one, despite the repeated pooey knickers. She'll then go off and play, then repeat. More pooey knickers and toilet refusal. I'm absolutely sick to death of it now.

We've tried everything.
Poo apps recommended by HV.
Ignoring and letting her lead (she then holds so long - days - that it's eventually painful when she finally does do one then is even more avoidant).
Forcing her to the loo (she refuses)
putting games and toys in the loo to keep her there / make it relaxed (she just plays and no poo comes out)
Positive reinforcement, sticker charts, rewards. Huge praise for every poo.
Also tried not making a fuss so she didn't stop doing it just because she wasn't getting a fuss.
Increased fluids and fruit.
We make doing a poo part of bedtime routine and sit her on the toilet every night before bed.
We often have to spend 15 mins making her laugh to get her to relax enough to poo.
She ALWAYS denies needing to go, even while she's doing one!
However, occasionally she takes herself off to do one, and gets on with it no problem. I have no idea why sometimes she can and sometimes she can't.

We saw GP when she was 2 or 3 and she's been on laxido daily ever since and the poos are always soft now. It's possible she was constipated at one point and had a painful poo.

The thing is, we'll go round in circles having a period where she's going on her own no problem, every day with no issues!! and then suddenly there'll be another period where she is constantly holding and it's a constant battle to get her to be regular.

I am absolutely sick to death of the pooey knickers and her little sister is starting to copy this behaviour and I just can't!

She's at school now and comes home with poo knickers on the regular and she gets a sore bum.

Help me Mumsnet!!

I don't what I'd do because I am luckily not in that situation and I know sometimes things are easier said than done, but I know my friend was desperate and after the psychologist visit the problem was resolved almost immediately.

According to the rules they were given, it was ignoring completely, 100%. Encouraging to go to the toilet is making a fuss in this situation and they were asked no to do that, no reward charts or anything. Do not talk about poo at all, not even telling her about the dirty knickers, nothing.

I mean, you have nothing to lose to try this approach for a few days. Maybe try to give her lots of fibre and fruit that helps (but without mentioning that she is having it to make it easier to go to the toilet!), my friend was shocked how easy it was that in the end it was the pressure stopping her son going to the toilet. He completely relaxed when he saw his parents were relaxed and ignoring his poos too.

I just wanted to send some solidarity as I ended up in that exact situation so many times with my child. Even though I knew it was wrong and definitely making the situation a million times worse I would sometimes end up so frustrated that I would lose it at my child and then like you end up feeling like the worst parent in the world. So just wanted to say you are definitely not alone.

I'm sorry I don't have much in the way of advice as I tried all the things you listed, the Eric website and poo goes to pooland definitely did not work for us. All I can say for us is that one day it just suddenly clicked, I'm sorry I know that's not much help now because I used to feel exactly the same and hated hearing that because I just felt like it would never click with my child but it finally did one day (this was about 2 years after becoming dry so it was a long process!)

The only thing I think that helped us as parents to deal with it was by taking breaks from it every now and again, not stressing at all and going back to using nappies for poos for a few weeks and then revisiting toilets/potty. I know some might say that's not ideal and could be confusing for the child but just do whatever you feel is best for you and your child. Don't be too hard on yourself x

I feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea of you getting her to wash her own knickers etc like some other posters are suggesting. I remember my own mum making me do that when I was ill with a tummy bug and it did feel abusive by my mum.

"Feeling uncomfortable" is the mildest possible reaction...this situation is straight up child abuse. Unfortunately many parents from the older generation wouldn't have known better so things that like that happened. However I'm gobsmacked that a MN user drops that in here so casually like it's an entirely reasonable solution to OP's issue.

Anything related to bodily functions are usually extremely complex and cannot be solved via punishment. It's like punishing an anorexic teen by shoving chocolate in her mouth and holding it closed until she swallows. A potty training child with fear of pooing (could also be a fear of poo itself) will not miraculously change their behaviour if you force them to clean up their own faeces.

My daughter had this - it started around 1.5/2 when she had a difficult/painful poo and then started to hold it in. She was on movicol for a few years but still tried to hold it in, we occasionally had to use suppositories as well. It was all psychological by the end - around the age of 8, she finally understood that she would make herself ill if she continued, and that poo has to come out eventually, you can’t hold it in forever. It is really frustrating so you have my sympathy! Maybe talking about the point of pooing as well might help, ie we eat food, get nutrients and our body gets rid of waste, might help?

Personally I'd do this. Stock up on cheap pants and throw the worst ones away.

Then leave her to it. If there's a mess, just tell her to clean up and change her pants but no comment beyond that.

No idea whether it will work but I'd stop all the attention (both positive/negative).

My daughter was the same and it went on for years. We tried all the bubbles, YT vids etc, nothing helped.

Finally what worked was I spoke to ERIC. They recommended a disimpaction routine with Movicol then a plan after that for a high dose, reduced over time.

She was also OK doing a poo in a nappy so I cut a hole in a nappy and she did a poo with the feeling of it being on, but she could see the poo afterwards in the potty. We both cried and she was OK after that - albeit on Movicol for several years at a small dose.

I wonder if you might be best to just ignore the situation and not talk about it anymore. If she does it in the toiket, then she gets a small gift and a sticker that you display. If she doesn't, then just a simple next time we will try to get it in the toilet. Perhaps even go back to nappies and tell her why? Maybe that will give her some motivation

I had the same thing with my DS. I gave up and just put a pull up on him to poo in after school. Literally, let's put on the pull up so you can poo, and off he went. After a while he just went to the toilet, maybe a combination of being embarrassed about the pull up and the stress being removed from the situation.
I remember feeling at the end of my tether like you describe, like this was never going to stop, but it did and it will for you too!

We went through this. Look up encompresis. Basically the spincter looses tone and it can take ages to regain tone. Like and other muscle. It’s crap to work through, but you really should be referred to a specialist clinic.

So humans are most likely to need a poo after meal times. I would sit her on the toilet after every meal. Give her the phone, ipad, colouring book, whatever works to keep her there for 10 minutes. Also her knees need to be above her hip level to be able to go easier. We use a stool in the toilet. Here is a funny video that explains why a stool is important - m.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q

Those are the 2 things that worked for us. Best of luck.

Hi, this definitely needs a specialist referral. They specialise in exactly this type of presentation. Go back to the gp and ask for one, I would also add in more for constipation and syrup of figs.

don’t make her clean it up etc as it’s likely to now be a medical problem rather than her fault. Hope you get this sorted.

And for goodness sake do t make her clean up the mass. Shame will make it worse.

Just buy a box of napisan and throw away the worst ones. I keep baby wipes and changes of clothes in my bag for years.

We had this issue with my 5 year old when she was younger and she is autistic. The poo issue has resolved in general but now it is about the toilet more broadly. I’ve concluded that she sees it as a “demand” that makes her feel anxious and out of control. We haven’t really found a proper solution although she generally responds quite well to reward charts etc. However it’s interesting to read that you wondered about PDA/autism and it might help to join some Facebook groups about these things in girls as they will probably have lots of suggestions of how you might solve the problem. It might also help you think about whether an assessment might be helpful - HVs are generally not very well trained in spotting signs of autism unless it’s barn door limited speech/spinning car wheels/no eye contact type behaviours. HVs are even less likely to be able to spot autism in a girl without a speech delay.

Oh my word, we have been here with my son. It was so stressful and difficult. This is what worked for us in the end, so hopefully there’s something here that helps you too.

I bought a book called “What to Do When Your Child Won’t Poo”. It was written by a fellow mum and was so helpful in terms of offering practical tips and support.

I found a blog called The Boy Who Pooed His Pants and I read it together with my son a few times. It’s written by a man who used to withhold as a boy and he shares his story in a really honest and easy to understand way.

I bought a padded toilet seat and my son did 20 min “potty sits” in the morning and evening without fail every day. I bought a fold up step stool so he would sit with his legs raised as they can’t hold in a poo in that position. We read together and he was allowed to watch things on my phone - anything to make it fun. This was the single most important thing we did, but it took weeks to start working. Eventually we did just the evening potty sits, but we kept these going for years as they were the only thing that worked. He would poo that way and it largely stopped accidents at other times.

My son is nine now and still has a small amount of Movicol to keep his poo soft to avoid any repeats of the problem. He’s being assessed for autism, and we wonder whether there was a sensory aspect to the problem too (not always recognising when he needed to go).

I’m so sorry you’re going through this as it’s really awful, but you’ll get through it - there really is light on the other side of the tunnel, I promise.

A lot depends on how you approach it, but for my child with toileting issues this was an enabling/empowering thing... he knew he could help solve things if that makes sense? But then we always had cloths, dustbins etc available for kids to help with any little spills or messes. It's about seeing kids as competent

Oh god I had this with both of mine. I forgot about it as they are older now but Omg it was difficult!!
What helped: —

• Syrup of Figs - you only need a small amount in some apple juice, don’t tell her about it. When mine got really stuffed up with 2 days of poo I’d use it. It’s more natural than prescribed drug and works a bloody treat!!!
• Where’s the Poo” book.
• Reading to them on the loo to relax
• Not shaming them , just chill about it - it will happen.
• loo seat insert with favourite character on
• Rewards if your child is motivated by that
• metanium cream on sore bum

This too will pass! Do NOT follow advice of poster above who says make her wash her poo pants. She’ll need psychotherapy when she’s older FFS 🤣

This was exactly what worked for us. We never made a big deal about stained pants, cleaning up small poos or shamed her about it even when it meant we had to cancel plans, change plans or just stay home. When she was in an acute "withholding mood", getting a poo out could take a good 3-8 hours. On holiday it means just sitting inside the hotel room, playing or watching iPad until something happens.

I'm ashamed to admit I did lose my cool a few times because like OP and so many other parents here, it feels like an utterly, ridiculous situation when every other child seems perfectly toilet trained between 2-4 yrs. However it changed so abruptly for us that I'm still reeling from how different life is when it doesn't revolve around poo. She just decided to stop withholding from one day to the next shortly before her 5th birthday and that was it. We still have a half-opened package of diaper and wipes that has not been touched since. Same for all the Movicol sachets lying around.

It’s also punishing her to train her, which is even out of fashion in dog training now.

Yes I've heard of this too. You basically give them a pull up (juts to poo in). I almost think you need to work out a plan, then consistently follow that for a month or so, then something else if that doesn't work, rather than changing tact frequently. All the best, it must be very stressful but I'm sure it will come right soon!

My son was like this. He would only poo in pull ups until he was 6 😩. Absolutely point blank refused to sit on the toilet or potty but was quite happy to pee in or on everything. I think it was part embarrassment and part fear. He is autistic but I'm not sure how much impact that had. The fact she will go off on her own and do it makes me think she needs the privacy. My son used to hide and then I'd just have to not make a fuss of changing him. I think this is fairly common. Good luck, I know it's frustrating.

To add, I would 100% return to the potty and let her choose where to put it.

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I'm quite surprised at the amount of posters who don't give their child privacy in the toilet. It's part of winning the battle to leave them to their own devices (at least it was for me). I wouldn't want somebody watching me!

My cousin ( now a father) was a reluctant bowel opener when he was 3 or 4. My poor aunt and uncle did, in hindsight, practically everything wrong, though followed advice at the time. There would be a screaming match when it was “ time” ( which they scheduled following advice in mid 80’s). He would resist so heartily that it ended up with my uncle holding him sternly on the loo and my aunt practically in tears beseeching him to try to poo. The rest of us were quite young too, but old enough to realise this was a seriously undignified performance. Every so often the loo door would burst open and my cousin would make a run for it with no pants on, which resulted in capture and re-positioning him on the loo. This never to my knowledge resulted in a satisfactory evacuation, so there was also the twice daily “ prune bar” which was kept in a tin and was a recipe involving mushed up prune and some kind of fig syrup. It looked like poo, so the rest of us dubbed it his “poo bar,” which was doubly appropriate. I can still remember him sitting on the kitchen worktop flailing his head and arms, wedged in by my aunt who was wailing “ just ONE little nibble! It’s lovely prune.” Inevitably he would escape and she would chase him round the house with the poo bar. This ludicrous, sometimes twice daily, event became known as the Poo-bah Chase.” We still have not let him forget it. But somehow he got through it, despite it being so badly handled. He doesn’t remember why he first started it except they think it was just a kind of behavioural/sensory / OCD thing, probably from someone saying something about poo being “ dirty.” ( which you might without thinking if they touched it etc). So it’s definitely “ a thing” and there is definitely no Poo-bah chase with him now so it does resolve.

Haven't read your whole post so I'm sorry if this doesn't line up but...

"Poo goes home to Pooland" app.

Try putting some loo paper in the toilet to muffle the sound of the poo 'plopping' in the loo water in case that's the issue (my daughter used to have to put her hands over her ears!).

Chocolate buttons as reward!!

Find a time when she's calm and you're having a little quiet chat, away from the toilet, calmly have the discussion about the poo issue? I mean, rather than just discussing it when it's actually time to 'go' or whatever.