To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

He he - miaow!!

Is that you, Jo? 😉

Are you saying people aren't allowed to complain or hold different beliefs? I bit totalitarian, no?

If by 'she' you mean the Guardian, again, incorrect. SM and HF left of their own volition, nobody 'was got rid of'.

But this thread is getting really childish and tiresome.

Mumsnet, I thought these threads belonged in the Sex and Gender Forum?

Ubiquity I know this is addressed to Sinner but I have questions on this point.

People can of course hold different beliefs but they ought to be able to back them up.

You called me transphobic upthread for calling trans women male. Factually they are male.

You refused to answer questions about that because you said it was a pile on.

I am very interested in the fact that you believe that trans women are not male and would like to know how you have arrived at that conclusion?

ubiquity

^Are you saying people aren't allowed to complain or hold different beliefs? I bit totalitarian, no?

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the Guardian doesn't tolerate sex realist attitudes.

If by 'she' you mean the Guardian, again, incorrect. SM and HF left of their own volition, nobody 'was got rid of'.

Yeah, right. They just left. Because. Suzanne Moore just left a well paid, long standing position (albeit freelance) at the Guardian for less money and security, just because.

Yeah, right. They just left. Because. Suzanne Moore just left a well paid, long standing position (albeit freelance) at the Guardian for less money and security, just because.

Suzanne Moore has been VERY open on the reasons she left the Guardian and I believe her.

I'm starting to think that some posters on this thread really don't like women.

Ah so it's not going the way you wanted it to so you want it consigned to the naughty corner!

I'm saying that the Guardian doesn't tolerate sex realist attitudes. Despite having published them...

Suzanne Moore just left a well paid, long standing position (albeit freelance) at the Guardian for less money and security, just because. She did. And if you'd read her incoherent rant of a resignation email you might take her 'martyrdom' over this with a pinch of salt.

I'm sick of getting sucked into this by these threads appearing in the general discussion forums, and continuing these playground spats.

So why don't you think that transwomen are male @ubiquity ?

Ask a transwoman that, how they want to be referred to.

So feelings of males over biological reality and lived reality of women?

I'm not getting into this. You're just coming across intolerant.

Woman objecting to years of bullying by hundreds of colleagues is 'incoherent rant'.

But that's the impact.

Who cares about women right?

You may not want to get into it but it's putting feelings above biological reality and the lived experience of women that has resulted in women losing single sex spaces.

If we lie and say that transwomen are not male then women can never have single sex spaces. Women are harmed by that.

If you put the wishes of transwomen (males) above the specific needs of women (to single sex spaces) then you might well think that a woman who seeks to exclude those males intolerant, that's on you.

But don't lie and say you care about women.

And don't say that this is playground spat, that's so fucking offensive, women are getting harmed because of tolerance of males in these spaces. We should be able to discuss this anywhere we bloody well want.

Years of bullying by hundreds of colleagues? Now that is an impressive piece of hyperbole. I repeat: so people aren't allowed to complain if they find something objectionable?

And the deflection and constant personal attack continues. The call for the thread to be moved. To silo all those ‘transphobic’ and now ‘intolerant’ voices away. This time for pointing out that it is not transphobic for pointing out that a person is male.

It is really like a script.

I haven't though. As I've already said I'm in favour of single sex spaces where they are necessary to protect the safety of biological women.

But it's OK to be respectful too to transwomen, many of whom are vulnerable and suffer a lot of discrimination and bigotry.

Over 300 is hundreds yes.

So evidence of this 'years of bullying by 300 people' please? Or shall we just leave this particular chestnut. It's this kind of obsessive drilling down I find weird in these 'discussions'.

So trans women are not male, except when they are (to protect biological women) and this is supposed to help these vulnerable people how?

I'm talking about how you speak about them.

Stop hounding me.

And what about trans women who have that lie on their official documents. The F marker on their passport?

It's really cruel to these vulnerable males to allow that lie and then say but you can't be in women's single sex spaces.

Better to stop lying. That would protect mental health better than a half lie.

And as JKR says I have no problem with any person wearing what they want or loving who they want but I don't think it's kind to tell lies.

You called me transphobic for calling transwomen male. I am not transphobic.

You are asking me to lie. I won't do that. It harms women.

I'm asking questions about your belief system. I want to understand it.

If that offends you I can't help you with that.