To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

Oh you mean the "forum" that's picking on women in this thread? Yes it's totally wrong to say something back, sure. No one has linked them, though, though I expect they'd love a few more readers.

Just maybe it was because you picked a random woman's thread about clothes for her baby and dragged it into an argument she is not involved in

well clearly not because my post linking to said thread was not deleted.
and as far as I’m aware you are allowed to link to other threads;

Ok, lots to go on here.

The post won’t have been deleted for linking another thread.

The thread you linked had a 50/50 vote last time I looked. So half the people here agree with you that stereotypes don’t matter, and half felt it was too ‘girly’.

There’s no entrance exam to join MN. People here may or may not be gender critical.

Stereotypes drive gender ideology, and possibly transphobia- I’m not sure about the latter as I’ve never spoken to anyone who is transphobic, at least not knowingly.

The deletion may have been for claiming that MN is full of anti trans sentiment, because that’s untrue. MN work hard to delete transphobia as soon as it’s reported. And it’s reported quickly!
You’ll see a thread title that was edited by MN to avoid any hint at misgendering, for example. Generally the women here are moderated stringently in comparison with their critics.

As I tried to explain in my previous post (which was for some incomprehensible reason deleted) mumsnet is full of anti-trans sentiment

It really is not.

The voting is in response to the question of whether she should buy the cardigan, which is not a direct indicator of whether people think stereotypes matter as it’s a different question. For example,
plenty of people saying buy the cardigan and then sell it if it’s a girl. It is people’s posts/ responses on the thread that are shocking. So many people implying it would be wrong and harmful to put this on a boy, because it’s a “girls’” cardigan. Whatever tf that means.

Anyways.

There’s no entrance exam to join MN. People here may or may not be gender critical

Sure.
The point is that I find some irony in the fact that whenever there is a thread about trans issues, this site because oh so (allegedly) “gender critical”. Suddenly all gender is “ideology” and must be rejected. But on any other subject, endorsement and acceptance of the most superficial and nonsense gender stereotypes is widespread .

The deletion may have been for claiming that MN is full of anti trans sentiment, because that’s untrue. MN work hard to delete transphobia as soon as it’s reported

I mean this is just absurd.

i see the usual anti women brigade are here

It's not the same group of people though is it? Is it women from the feminism boards worrying about baby clothing? Unlikely. As pointed out above Mumsnet is a very large site.

I would guess there's thousands of people logging on each day. Not all those people will think the same about everything or even take any interest in many of the boards.

I don't know why this is difficult to understand. Mumsnet isn't one thing in the same way Twitter or Instagram isn't one thing.

Ps and editing the title of that thread in no way made it less anti trans. It was an anti trans thread, designed to whip up anti trans sentiment. And mumsnet let it stand. They want to allow debate on a subject where there is no consensus, fine. But don’t then delete perfectly legitimate commentary calling out transphobia when it is displayed and discussing the origins/ roots of this prejudice.

What ova (and others) said

sometimes on threads i have seen posters complaining about mumsnetters double standards…this make no sense to me, obviously the many many posters on mumsnet have different opinions. Its only double standards when one poster is saying two contradictory things

And yet the remarks about the people monitoring this very thread is directly related to this very thread.

Are you making a literal interpretation of 'gender critical' Tandora. I'm critical of gender from the point of view that it has enabled males to be in women's single sex spaces.

Other than that humans can express themseves as they wish. I grew up in the 80s, men wore lippy, eyeliner and wore their nails long back then, especially in Brighton where I spent my student years. Not one of them claimed to be a literal woman. Non gender conforming males were so much kinder to women back then. I wonder what went wrong?

Well I lost count quite fast Tandora, but the first page was about 80% saying who cares, it will do for a girl or a boy. There were about 3 saying don’t put a boy in it and a couple of slightly vague ones.

Even if it said differently, what difference does that make? Some women on a forum prefer to put their children in colour coded clothes. Others prefer to avoid gender stereotypes.

This is the feminism section so women here generally avoid gender stereotypes while respecting women’s autonomy to do what they like.

Is it as absurd as men cheating in women's sport and getting any with it? 🤔

Tandora's reach, trying to drag in a completely irrelevant thread into a discussion about women who call themselves "GC" is as big a reach as "Rosie Duffield's to blame for Paula Vennells because she's besties with Justin Welby" or whatever misogynistic nonsense was spouted upthread.

And yet the remarks about the people monitoring this very thread is directly related to this very thread.

I know brass neck of it.

The thread with the title adapted to appease cheats was about how women’s sports are no longer fair. People who have male advantages due to their birth and childhood are entering, winning and displacing female athletes.
People like the woman who missed out on a university sponsorship because Lia Thomas took her place on the squad.

Is it frustration that women are thinking independently of each other that’s offending you, Tandora? Like some of them think one thing, and others another. Is that what’s bothering you?

And I'm going to post a DM article, roll out the fainting couches, but women really should not enable male people like this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11731777/amp/Trans-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-dropped-pants-exposed-male-genitalia-womens-locker-room.html

Pondering what the roots of prejudice are in women who are angry at having our stuff stolen by men?

Could it just be that we are angry about men stealing our stuff just as they have done for a millennia?

The word I would choose for this is injustice.

OMG @Ereshkigalangcleg no matter that it reports something that actually happened that the left wing press wouldn't report , cos reasons. The fact that you have mentioned the DM means that you are literally a Nazi, right wing bigot. Shame on you.

That was the point of this thread, wasn't it?

I see your Lia, and raise you with the 50+yr old Canadian currently competing in children’s swimming competitions- and changing in the girls, with the girls.

But I’ll just get my horse hair shirt and do penance. I’m clearly a bigot completely brainwashed by the pink T-shirts mum (evil woman) made me wear to even notice it.

OMG @Ereshkigalangcleg no matter that it reports something that actually happened that the left wing press wouldn't report , cos reasons. The fact that you have mentioned the DM means that you are literally a Nazi, right wing bigot. Shame on you.

That was the point of this thread, wasn't it?

Yes. I won't mention the fucking blatant lies the guardian told over Wi Spa.

Shit if an anti trans thread is left standing. But that has nothing to do with this one.

Have you started a thread in Site Stuff? @MNHQ usually read and respond to those.