To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

Because the Left is obsessed with identity politics!

Of course it’s my opinion. Who else’s would it be? No other serious life changing diagnosis has only one Doctor seeing the person and signing off a diagnosis.

The TWAW are the side that believe transwomen are women.

If Labour decide having a GRC makes someone a woman, then they do think TWAW. But only some transwomen which is an even bigger flaw in the argument.

How is it the extreme end? Are you suggesting it’s just a few people who think trans women are women and therefore entitled to be in women spaces? Since the people who are trans are in small numbers, how do you explain the many cases of biological men in female sport? It’s female sport. If it’s only a few extremists in a small group, they appear to be very busy.

There would be no issue if TRAs accept transwomen and women are not the same.

It doesn’t clearly set out anything. Saying there can be a women’s only space if you can’t run the service, otherwise means nothing.

KS is well aware of the need to be absolutely clear. And as I said, even the person reading the article says he isn’t. He is still on the fence.

Why are you being so rude? I haven’t been rude to you. Weren’t you lecturing people earlier on being rude, because you were hangry?

I would certainly put Dawn Butler, Lisa Nandy, Nadia Whittome, Lloyd Russell-Moyle et al at the extreme end of this 'debate' - they may well be in decision making positions later this year so I don't think women should 'chill out' at all.

Since July 2023, have any of them said that they believe TWAW, biologically, and should have access to single sex spaces for natal women only, going against their own party's official line on this?

Ahhh Dawn butler who threatened to report mumsnet to the police at Christmas 🤪

The TWAW are the side that believe transwomen are women.

If Labour decide having a GRC makes someone a woman, then they do think TWAW.

You were talking about people who believe TWAW, biologically. I believe TWAW, but obviously there is a difference in the biology of trans and natal women, which makes it necessary for there to be some single sex spaces for natal women only, which is Labour's revised line on this, and I agree with it. So if we are concerned about women only spaces, that's the crucial issue here.

And the amount of flak she gets is of course not at all racist.

Oh now wait a minute if put my bingo card away. I’ll have to get it out again now!

making a complete tit of yourself on Twitter is not limited to any particular race btw

Given this shitshow happened under and because of the Tory government.

As I pointed out much earlier in the thread, so no need for you to patronise me.

I am sure that she does experience racism, yes, and it's abhorrent.

But are you implying that women who do not agree with her are being racist?

And the amount of flak she gets is of course not at all racist.

She gets flak on Mumsnet because she's a genderist idiot who is getting funded by dodgy organisations to spout bollocks. Not because she's black. Is the flak Kemi Badenoch gets from the right thinking all racist?

Article here from August on their sudden silence...

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/08/02/can-labour-really-be-trusted-on-the-trans-issue/

Who apart from trolls think that men become women?

Well, Kier Steamer thinks a percentage of women have penises. So, that's a concern when people tell us he is the future of 'middle ground'.

I rather think that these are DBs true feelings on the matter:

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1684495633627893760

It doesn’t clearly set out anything. Saying there can be a women’s only space if you can’t run the service, otherwise means nothing.

It does. The key points are:

• The requirement to obtain a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria remains an important part of accessing a gender recognition certificate.
• The current process also requires a panel of anonymous doctors to decide something of momentous significance, based on reams of intrusive medical paperwork and evidence of any surgery. This is demeaning for trans people and meaningless in practice. A diagnosis provided by one doctor, with a registrar instead of a panel, should be enough.
• We are proud of the Equality Act and will oppose any Conservative attempt to undermine it. We will protect and uphold it in government, including both its protected characteristics and its provision for single-sex exemptions.
• We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

KS is well aware of the need to be absolutely clear. And as I said, even the person reading the article says he isn’t. He is still on the fence.

He is not on the fence. But this is a very difficult issue with strong opinions on both sides of the argument. It requires tact and nuance.

Why are you being so rude? I haven’t been rude to you. Weren’t you lecturing people earlier on being rude, because you were hangry?

Sorry, I don't want to make anyone feel bad. I get riled too when I get hounded (not necessarily meaning you).

The current process also requires a panel of anonymous doctors to decide something of momentous significance, based on reams of intrusive medical paperwork and evidence of any surgery. This is demeaning for trans people and meaningless in practice. A diagnosis provided by one doctor, with a registrar instead of a panel, should be enough.

I see zero reason to water this down. Getting to falsify your birth certificate isn't something that should be undertaken lightly. It's not supported by the majority of the population. They are pandering to the extremists in the party. But this won't satisfy them, so it's all a bit pointless.

Written by Jo Bartosch, another Daily Mail/Telegraph journalist so forgive me for not taking her credentials as a women's rights champion terribly seriously.

And let's be clear, what you have shared is not any evidence that anyone within the Labour party has said that TWAW, biologically, therefore being entitled to access to all single sex spaces.

But that's what happens. In this and other issues. It's about visibility. By amplifying TRA voices on the left, while ignoring those on the right and amplifying RW voices opposed to TRA a false impression is created.

If MP Jamie Wallis had been Labour, LibDem, SNP, you can bet the DM would be letting us know every time he bought a new frock. But because he's a Tory MP, nada. They didn't even think it was important when the Tory party appointed him to Women's and Equalities.

It is important to be aware of press manipulation. There's a lot of it going on.

this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

From everything i have seen and experienced from them I don't trust that they mean exclusively female when they say "biological women". It will at least include GRC holders, and then it becomes hard to exclude any males. That's what I meant by the devil in the detail.

I would solve this by providing single sex spaces.

The issue I have with the GC movement is the need to completely assassinate the concept of being trans, and labelling anyone who is trans as (usually) a sexual predator.

I would say that if genuine concerns for women were at the forefront of the popular movement of anti trans sentiment, it would be miles less vitriolic and hateful and would get much more traction. But actually, other more powerful and equally hateful demographics agree with GC views just fine, so the message of “demonise trans people” is getting about just fine.

Written by Jo Bartosch, another Daily Mail/Telegraph journalist so forgive me for not taking her credentials as a women's rights champion terribly seriously.

Jo is a left wing feminist lesbian who has written for a wide range of publications, so forgive me for discarding your uninformed, knee jerk opinion.

sorry on phone and it doesn’t seem to have quoted the post I meant to quote.

Well if you don't believe, then you don't believe it. But I hope you believe that women's rights are not going to improve under the Tories.

The issue I have with the GC movement is the need to completely assassinate the concept of being trans, and labelling anyone who is trans as (usually) a sexual predator.

No one labels "anyone who is trans" as "usually a sexual predator". Half of "trans people" are female, for a start.

Identifying as something does not alter biology. Biologically we are as we are born. But, people can identify as whatever they like - provided it doesn’t encroach upon other people’s spaces or hard won rights.

Well if you don't believe, then you don't believe it. But I hope you believe that women's rights are not going to improve under the Tories.

I don't believe it because I have very good reason not to. I'm not a Tory, but people who say they are politically homeless were mocked upthread iSTR.