To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

And ‘Anna’ who asked the question, I said this then but I will say it again “awesome job!”

She's a Mumsnetter i think.

Quite

So you didn’t post this about women having to be very careful about what they post as links:

“This post is an accurate summary of the socio-political movement of the past few years. It has been engineered quite carefully by the extreme far-right using the reach of social media bots. Anti-trans is simply one piece of the chessboard, and you are the pawns, sadly.”

Then this

“The far-right amplifies any issue it finds and, in doing so, makes it seem much worse and widespread than it actually is. I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't defend their rights, but equally, you should recognise the larger picture. “If you re-tweet a post, consider its source: you could be simply aiding the extreme far-right movement gain further momentum.” (my bolding)

And

“I think it's helpful to be aware of the source of the media you're consuming. Much of it is propaganda - from all across the spectrum.”

And

“This is somewhat ingenuous, as it is fairly clear who and what the far-right entities are.”

And

“The idea is simply to be more critical of what you read and share. It doesn't mean you can only have a certain viewpoint or share particular things - just be more choosy about it.”

And

“It made him prominent due to the fact the rest of the RW group retweeted him. Over and over. “

You are very clear that women reposting content are spreading “RW” influence. You have said that it is very clear who the ‘far right entities’ are. Well we have been told over and over that the DM is a far right propaganda rag by posters who will not read anything published there. Despite that left wing feminists write in the DM.

You really seem to be keen in analysing the content women post and trying to categorise our talking points as tools of the ‘RW’. I am being up front that I haven’t checked, I could be spreading some ‘RW’ propaganda because I haven’t checked. It is up to you whether you read or watch it.

I have voted Labour all my life. I have considered myself a feminist since age 12. I am anti-racism, anti-homophobia and was for a long time, anti-transphobia. I'm not like Donald Trump.

Then I heard about Lia Thomas. He was 6ft 4" and had been coached on the male swim team. He decided one day he was a woman, took a woman's spot in the women's team and unsurprisingly won women's medals. And he's not the first and he certainly won't be the last.

This is same old, same old misogyny. Men pushing women out of the way so they can claim the winnings. Women unable to speak up or stop it because they don't have the power. Male-dominated sports governing bodies allowing men to destroy women's sports because women are unimportant, especially when a man might be sad if they say no.

Women are not men, no matter what bits they cut off, stick on or hormones they take. Men are not women, no matter what bits they cut off, stick on or hormones they take.

We need to come up with sensible ways and boundaries to accommodate people questioning their gender. Third spaces and clear understanding of when biology is more important than inner gender identity.

Then I heard about Lia Thomas. He was 6ft 4" and had been coached on the male swim team. He decided one day he was a woman, took a woman's spot in the women's team and unsurprisingly won women's medals. And he's not the first and he certainly won't be the last.

According to some of the young women he competed against, he also took advantage of the fact that he could use the women's changing room to reveal his penis while getting changed.

All these things that apparently we only care about so we can be mean to trans people because we’ve been brainwashed by the daily mail.

Things like, women in prison, women’s sports, women’s health, girls in school, women’s awards…

What is it they all have in common which is the real reason we care rather than some imagined, trumped up transphobia? Oh yes, that word JKR was reaching for that time- womben, womwin, something like that!

It's so telling, isn't it? The whole cohort of people out there who cannot fathom why anyone would stand up for women. They genuinely can't understand it.

And that women must be so so so careful to not further the far right’s causes. When in fact, it has always been a feminist cause first and foremost. And that the ”RW” may desire the overall outcome very loosely, but most likely with significant differences as you drill down. They have their own motivations for supporting the clarity of laws protecting women and children and only some are shared with feminists and other groups.

But women need to be very careful in the media they post so as not to progress the RW while the left wing media remains silent and even vilifies those feminists who raise the alarm.

The intention may not be to silence, censure, censor and shame women, but the outcome certainly is achieving that. It also very much seems to come from ‘I support women’s rights to single sex spaces for all the same reasons, but I am nothing like ‘those’ women over there! They are doing it all wrong.’

And it is same old, same old. Rinse and repeat. It is just another weekly cycle of the same recriminations and accusations.

Well we have been told over and over that the DM is a far right propaganda rag

Because it is, and if you're getting your 'facts' and opinions from it then that explains a lot about you, and as I suspected, of many of the posters here. How you can agree with the values of DM and claim to be a feminist is beyond me.

If only the left had vociferously defended women’s rights, from their unassailable position of virtue. That would have socked it to those morally bankrupt right wingers. How dare they accidentally defend women’s rights while they strive to keep us barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen.

I didn’t see anyone align with the values of the DM? Quite the opposite. One of those stopped clock situations again.

If only the left wing press had supported… etc etc.

The right don't do much, on the whole, to defend women's rights. Some have opportunistically tacked on to this issue and used it to divide the left and claim to be on the side of women when their policies tell a very different story. Some Tory backbenchers have women's rights (AND trans rights) more at heart but nobody with any actual power listens to them.

@Helleofabore

You really seem to be keen in analysing the content women post and trying to categorise our talking points as tools of the ‘RW’. I am being up front that I haven’t checked, I could be spreading some ‘RW’ propaganda because I haven’t checked. It is up to you whether you read or watch it.

I don't recall referencing the Daily Mail directly - it was you that went all in with that. Honestly, the bile that is spewed when someone with a slightly different opinion to you all is incredible. I wasn't attempting to offend anyone but you'd think so with all the bloody pushback.

Read what you like.

Post what you like.

Just be aware of the manipulation behind the scenes.

That's it.

Honestly, the bile that is spewed when someone with a slightly different opinion to you all is incredible

Because you're ignorant about this issue, uninformed about women's achievements, it's all very predictable and your own biases are showing.

If only the left had vociferously defended women’s rights, from their unassailable position of virtue. That would have socked it to those morally bankrupt right wingers. How dare they accidentally defend women’s rights while they strive to keep us barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen.

THIS. Rage at the left.

you're getting your 'facts' and opinions from it then that explains a lot about you

No one here is getting their facts and opinions from the Daily Mail. We all have more knowledge of how this issue has unfolded than you do. The Daily Mail started covering this because women started speaking out about it.

You weren’t intending to ‘offend’ anyone by repeating the tired old trope that women are told and warned and accused of every fucking day.

Like women on this board are children and not intelligent, articulate and fucking more knowledgeable about than you, yet you have come across to chide us. Just joining your voice the huge cacophony we already get. Isn’t that what you warned us about doing. Do you see the hypocrisy yet and why you are getting the feedback you are getting.

All I did was capture your first lot of posts on this thread. If you feel that is ‘spewing bile’, maybe you fucking need to read your own posts.

The Daily Mail started covering this because women started speaking out about it.

If you think that you're unbelievably naive and the intended target audience.

Yes I mentioned the DM.

Because you told us specifically that people ‘know’ who the far right entities are. And I was very clear in my reply that according to all the other people who frame us as ‘anti-trans’, as whatever the latest hyperbolic phrase is that is forceably being foist on us have a common refrain. That the DM is ‘far right’.

Do you see it now?

If you think that you're unbelievably naive and the intended target audience.

That's hilarious because I think you're unbelievably naive.

Are you aware of the manipulation behinds the scenes.

Someone managed to convinced a lot of people that a man can become a woman by saying he is.

Managed to convince the same people that any woman who objects are fair targets for threats of rape and murder.

Managed to convince the same people that women wanting spaces for biological women was literal violence against men and their feelings. That lesbians who don’t want to have sex with someone with a penis are bigots. Even convince some people that the word lesbian has never meant women who are same sex attracted and Managed to convince some people that sexual orientation isn’t valid and if it excludes them it’s hate.

How did they manage that?

So let’s not pretend the media manipulation is only from one side.

YES! Helleofabore

Your fury is shared by so many of us who are not as articulate but feel it all the same. You are an inspirational poster. Thank you. 💪

“Just be aware of the manipulation behind the scenes.”

What? Like being told we are Nazis because every feminist who believes that sex cannot be changed and should be prioritised above gender is a nazi? Yeah. Been there done that had it screamed directly in my face while I stand in a line holding hands to allow women to simply speak.

I think that we are so fucking aware of all the manipulations. Including the ones where posters tell us that they agree with us on what we are working for, but that we are anti-trans and a slew of other baseless and prejudiced accusations.

Managed to convince the same people that women wanting spaces for biological women was literal violence against men and their feelings. That lesbians who don’t want to have sex with someone with a penis are bigots. Even convince some people that the word lesbian has never meant women who are same sex attracted and Managed to convince some people that sexual orientation isn’t valid and if it excludes them it’s hate.

Have you ever ever examined why you believe these things, or are caping for people who do, @DrBalenciaga @ubiquity ?