To vaccinate newborn or not

[confusedaboutclothes]

I know this is a very sensitive subject, but i’m asking please for FACTS only - I don’t want answers like ‘because the NHS recommends you to vaccinate your baby etc’

Id like to point out i’m not ‘anti vax’ as such, but covid really opened my eyes to researching vaccines etc i’ve done my own research on whether i should be vaccinating my newborn but it’s hard to find unbiased facts.

What I don’t like, is the pressure that is put on us to do as we’re told with our babies. I don’t like the constant reminders, the phone calls and the pressure to vaccinate - it all feels like a box ticking exercise not because the NHS are actually worried about my baby.

Please be kind, I really am confused about this and would love some different perspectives

My Nana lost her 4 year old brother and her 2 year old sister to diseases that we now routinely vaccinate against.

My father had TB as a child and suffered from the consequences throughout his life.

A family friend had polio and was left unable to use one of his legs.

I had a case of “mild” whooping cough as a child (no vaccination available then) and spent the 6 weeks summer holiday being horribly ill. I remember coughing until I was sick over and over again.

The alternative is that you can give your baby the best chance possible to escape those consequences and grow up healthy.

That’s because there isn’t a lot of grey area. I’m old enough to have had measles, mumps and rubella. All horrible, even the rubella which is supposedly mild. One of my aunts died of whooping cough, aged five. Get your baby vaccinated.

The process by which the covid vaccine was licenced is unlike that for any of the vaccines offered to babies. So, I'd take that out of the equation.

It's unlikely that you have access to the computing resources, data and professional skills to adequately research the various vaccinations, so it's probably best you rely on the conclusions drawn by those they do.

It's not unreasonable to be concerned, it would be weird not to be. But every immunolgist I know, and I know a lot, has their kids vaccinated.

No wonder some people don't think for themselves, you clearly don't have the capacity to. Or the capacity to have a conversation that involves independent thoughts that are relevant but not directly related. Or to step back and see multiple sides of a topic. But yes, random person, thank you for letting everybody know that was the end of the conversation because you can't see the relevance.

@TravelInHope I'm aware it been added now - but my kids are late teens and two have had it so too late for us.

It is good it's there now and nice they are sure it won't affect shingles cases - but still think it should have been added earlier and children prioritized.

Just look up Diphtheria. Then think about what you have posted.

Any pharma product is rigorously tested before being allowed to market.

The facebook warriors posting "we don't know the effects of this vaccine" are talking absolute shite.

The general public are not qualified to comment on vaccine safety. No science degree - no opinion.

Trust the medics and scientists.

These are really good/worth looking into.

https://backtothevax.com/ - mum who vaccinated her first child and was then convinced that a poorly-timed virus was a "vaccine reaction" by an antivax facebook group, got very pulled into this world, felt very anxious about things in general, then started to notice some discrepancies in the messaging around COVID (e.g. the mums on the group had previously said "If there's an epidemic, we'll socially distance and wash hands!" - but then when COVID hit they actually turned 180 degrees on this and refused to do those things because that was "propaganda") - she then after a while left the group and started looking more into vaccines from another side and now feels positive towards them and wants to help other people find fact from fiction. Her mental health is much better since leaving the groups. Apologies, there are some needle images on this site (I used to find that hard/scary). If you don't want to see the images try searching "back to the vax" on podcasts or youtube and listen to any interview with the hosts here.

QAnon Anonymous Episode 218 "Died Suddenly" - Excellent interview with Dr. Dan Wilson (DebunkTheFunk) who really understands the antivax movement and the concerns of parents pulled into it, inside out. I really really liked this podcast, it is respectful, it is done well. It mostly focuses on the COVID vaccines, not other vaccines. I think he also did an interview on the Back to the Vax podcast if you would prefer to listen to one which is centred on the standard baby vaccines. He also has a youtube page but I find these individual videos quite dry and boring to watch - maybe helpful if you are looking to see the other side of a specific claim.

Apple link: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/episode-218-died-suddenly-feat-dr-dan-wilson/id1428209307?i=1000598579680
Android: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjQ5MjEzNTQyMC9zb3VuZHMucnNz/episode/dGFnOnNvdW5kY2xvdWQsMjAxMDp0cmFja3MvMTQ0MjA4ODI5OA?sa=X&ved=0CAgQuIEEahcKEwj42-Oe4dKDAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQLA

Parents, you are being Lied To - something I read a few years after I wrestled with this myself and breathed a sigh of relief and wished I'd had access to it originally. Unfortunately most of the links are now dead, but I did follow them at the time and they were good.

There is a Channel 4 Dispatches called "The Anti Vax Conspiracy" which is excellent. This was new information for me - previous to watching this documentary, I thought that most people sharing antivax info genuinely believed in what they were saying and had real concerns which were probably just wrong, whether they were the people regurgitating what others had said, parents who had experienced children they felt were "harmed" by vaccines, or so-called experts who presented the info from their end. From watching this I found out that, alarmingly, the group of "experts" claiming that vaccination is the cause of any number of terrible things are a VERY small group of people, all connected to alternative health companies, all standing to gain a great deal from turning people away from mainstream medicine, and even worse if you go right to the top of a lot of the claims, they have enough knowledge and would have had to pull data from a larger set in such a way that they could not possibly think that they are right. They KNOW that they are wrong but choose to portray misinformation on purpose.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1112270/7585768-the-anti-vaccine-movement - Podcast "You're Wrong about: The anti-vaccine movement". This is badly titled IMO and is more about the demonisation of autism as this awful terrible thing. I didn't think the antivax debunking content was that good, it was quite surface level. But it was a great, informative, horrifying podcast anyway.

I do think if somebody is anxious or wants to know more then NHS leaflets aren't always the best resource. They're really an introduction to a topic, and written to be very accessible (quite rightly) for people with a lower reading age, or English as an additional language etc. They don't usually go into much depth.

I think in this case the Doctor or health visitor would have been better talking to the OP rather than sending her onto the internet.

I was a journalist did a lot of research into whooping cough (pertussis) and the vaccine. I did this because my eldest got whooping cough at primary school - he was fully vaccinated - and gave it to me - I was vaccinated too - and I gave it to my newborn son, who was too young to be vaccinated yet and became quite ill. In the course of my research I spoke to an expert GP in pertussis, and he was very clear that the pertussis vaccine does not stop people catching or spreading it, as is widely believed. More than that, he estimated that only 1 in 100 cases of whooping cough was ever diagnosed and notified. The best it can do is ameliorate the disease.

This idea that vaccines are 100% effective and stop spread is simply not true. Some are very effective, and do stop spread, even entirely eliminating the disease (smallpox). Many vaccines, however, are only partially effective. We know this from the Covid vaccines, which turned out not to stop people catching Covid and not to stop spreading, even though we were all assured they would. There is also a growing body of research that indicates the MRNA vaccines can have lethal side effects, and in some groups - especially young healthy men - the risk from the vaccine is higher than the risk from Covid. It will take years for this to be acknowledged, just as it took years for the people who developed narcolepsy as a result of the swine flu vaccine (many were NHS workers forced to have the vaccine) to be compensated.

OP, ignore all the people calling you stupid and ill informed. You are absolutely right not to believe everything you're told. I can't give you a definitive answer whether to vaccinate or not. I did decide to have all mine given the MMR in stages, but I absolutely would not have the MRNA covid vaccine given to my child. There are too many unanswered questions as to the effect on the immune system, and Covid very rarely causes problems for healthy children.

regardless of your view on vaccines - if you google how many babies are born each year you can see why the communication is impersonal - it is a box ticking exercise as they want to make sure as many babies as possible are protected.

I have a 3 week old baby. I will definitely have her fully vaccinated just like my other two children.

This is such a thoughtful and insightful post, really appreciated it.

I had measles when I was about 4 (I'm mid-60s). I had a mild case but I was so unwell - I remember the headache and the light intolerance. Please, please vaccinate your child.

@confusedaboutclothes "it all feels like a box ticking exercise not because the NHS are actually worried about my baby."

Ok, but what box do you think it ticks, then? You presumably don't believe the NHS does mass vaccination programs just to pass the time/use up money, so what are you suggesting they get out of it?

Even from a cynical viewpoint - that the NHS does it to save themselves the cost/resource of dealing with illness in unvaccinated children, rather than out of "worry" for those children - the conclusion for your baby is still the same. That is: (s)he is less likely to get ill if (s)he is vaccinated.

I know two people who had polio…. It made me extra keen that my children had the vaccine.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to have some worries about your tiny, vulnerable baby having vaccinations, but I do think you need to weigh that up against the alternatives. As others have said, vaccines have reduced the childhood mortality rate to very low, whereas in the past many children died. This article is interesting in lives saved by vaccines in more recent times https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/213373/vaccines-prevented-37-million-deaths-lmics/

i caught measles, mumps and rubella as a child before the age of 10, before the days of MMR. I can remember having measles and feeling really ill (though thankfully nothing serious), and I am thankful I haven’t experienced my own children catching them all and being ill. We have also paid for my youngest to have the chickenpox vaccine having seen how ill some of our older children’s friends were with it.

I had the rubella vaccine later as part of the routine programme at the time for girls around 11, and measles as a teenager as part of a programme to head off a predicted epidemic in the mid 90s - I found this about why they did those vaccinations then which again is an interesting read though older https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e5e4623e90e077e36059949/Department_of_Health_-Measles_Rubella_Immunisation_Campaign_in_England-ONe_year_On-_November_1995.pdf

Of course you are worried. There are lots of scare stories out there! Please also be mindful that anyone could reply to you on mumsnet. Look for trusted sources of advice like this NHS page https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/why-vaccination-is-important-and-the-safest-way-to-protect-yourself/

Because they stop your child becoming seriously ill. Let me ask you this time question how would you feel if your child was too become very ill or worse with a disease that would of been preventable with a vacine ?
The nhs is on the bare bones of its arse do you honestly think it would be giveing out millions of free vacines if they didn't deem them necessary to save childrens lives ?

My uncle died of diphtheria aged 2

OP well done for asking and taking everyone's thoughts on board, it's obvious you care for your child.

For those jumping down OPs throat - that is exactly how people get pushed into more extreme rhetoric with groups who validate their concerns.

The disinformation from anti-vaxxers is designed to confuse, they are banking on people ridiculing those who ask genuine questions due to that confusion.

that ridicule then makes it unlikely they will ask again and get good info. They will ask where they haven't been shamed.

I think the covid vaccine experience is a bit of a red herring when it comes to talking about childhood vaccines. Covid is not generally a deadly disease among children. Therfore the risk of taking a covid vaccine isn't offset by a huge benefit for a child.

Measles however, very much is a deadly disease among children. And those who survive quite often are left with disabilities. I worked with a lady who was left partially sighted after getting measles as a child. I had mumps myself, before the vaccine was brought in. I was only 3 and can still vividly remember being up all night crying because of the excruciating pain in my ears. I was left with ear problems throughout my childhood. The risk / benefit ratio very much leans towards vaccination for these childhood diseases and the relevant vaccines have been around a long time, much longer than the covid vaccines. If they were problematic we would know about it by now.

I'm not vaccinated neither is my child. I've looked into it in detail.
I would like to see long term studies showing general health of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. There are a few small scale (so not statistically significant) they show unvaccinated are healthier.
I think there is a good reason why big pharma do not do these studies!

I imagine I’ll be in the minority here but if I was bringing up my babies again, I would not vaccinate them.

My two haven’t had the teen HPV vaccines and they haven’t had the teen boosters.
One chose to have 2 experimental trial vaccines a couple of years ago but they’re an adult and I couldn’t stop them but with my research and persuasion (thanks goodness) my youngest didn’t have any.

Neither had the flu mist.

As babies, both had all of their vaccines except for the dodgy rotavirus one. The side effects were the exact same as what it was supposed to prevent.

@confusedaboutclothes you must do precisely what you want and if something doesn’t feel right, it’s your baby and you’re their mother.

If the NHS/NGS digital/GP surgery/HV etc call you about the same thing 3 times +, put in writing that they’re harassing you and you do not want them to contact you about it any more or you will speak to a solicitor. Temper it by saying you’ll decide what’s best for your baby and that may well change over time but for now, you’ve decided not to pursue it.

If you do decide to vaccinate, there is nothing wrong with waiting until your baby is a bit older than their set schedule or if you want to space out dual vaccines for a bit.

If your baby has them and has ANY side effects (no matter how small) please report those to the MHRA with the Yellow Card System online.

I’m a microbiologist, I work in pharma, I’m pro vaccine, my children have had all of theirs including the chicken pox vaccine. The Covid vaccine left me with high blood pressure and tachycardia…unfortunately.

if I had another baby would I vaccinate them…yes absolutely