To vaccinate newborn or not

[confusedaboutclothes]

I know this is a very sensitive subject, but i’m asking please for FACTS only - I don’t want answers like ‘because the NHS recommends you to vaccinate your baby etc’

Id like to point out i’m not ‘anti vax’ as such, but covid really opened my eyes to researching vaccines etc i’ve done my own research on whether i should be vaccinating my newborn but it’s hard to find unbiased facts.

What I don’t like, is the pressure that is put on us to do as we’re told with our babies. I don’t like the constant reminders, the phone calls and the pressure to vaccinate - it all feels like a box ticking exercise not because the NHS are actually worried about my baby.

Please be kind, I really am confused about this and would love some different perspectives

These are the people plus any elderly people whose siblings, cousins and friends "disappeared" that the OP needs to talk to.

@confusedaboutclothes

I understand your concerns OP even though my DC are all vaccinated (not against covid just the childhood regular ones). You have this box fresh tiny tiny baby and there is something so strange about jabbing them at such a young age.

Some m thing to consider, it is possible to ask to space the vaccines out. So rather than hit them with 9 vaccines in one day, you can ask to space them. If I had my time again I would be doing this. I’m not against them, I just think it’s cruel to hit people (babies or not) with multiple vaccines on one day.

Please read my previous replies

The simple answer is that with a medicine like calpol, there is a dose-response curve ie the more you give the bigger the effect. In fact dose-response is usually an S-shaped curve, so it get decreasingly effective while side effects may kick in. A vaccine needs a tiny amount of antigen to kick-start an immune response, and the dose-response curve is very flat ie adults do not need much more than children as the effect is not predominantly determined by your body mass. Think of it as adding oil to an engine (medicine) or turning the ignition with a key (vaccine).

Anybody in complete denial that health agencies and bodies can be biased or just plain incorrect; the world health organisation has said recently in the FIRST instance of a child believing they are trans, puberty blockers should be given to the child. In their words (roughly) puberty blockers are the "least harmful" option as they mean the child progresses neither to adult male or adult female and can then make a decision later on. So the WHO is actively pushing puberty blockers in the FIRST INSTANCE of a child proclaiming to be trans. And they staye they do no harm , when there is research to show that puberty blockers can affect bone density for life, make the child infertile, and so on. But please, continue to have complete "faith" in science and medical bodies without questioning for yourselves.

@BertieBotts thank you so much

If you really want facts on this issue, take a walk in any old cemetery and look at the dates on the gravestones. Pay attention to how many of them are graves of babies and young children.

I remember I saw a gravestone that really told a story in the birth and death years it marked. It was a 19th century family of 7, parents + 5 children. One of the children died as a baby. Three others had died at a young age in the same year, likely during an epidemic. The fifth lived to be a teen and died in the same year as their father, likely during another epidemic. Only the mother survived into her 60s, without them. That family lingered in my mind for a long time.

That was the reality of having children, before the existence of modern medicine and vaccines against diseases that were rampant child-killers: most women knew what it was like to bury a baby. There were areas in Victorian London where up to 40-50% of children died before age 5. In some communities it was so bad that people would not name their babies before they'd survived smallpox, because what was the point of investing emotionally before then? It wasn't just something ordinary people suffered, either. King Henry VIII had 11-12 children out of which only 2 reached adulthood and 2 died as teens, the rest perished in infancy. Queen Anne had 17 pregnancies and none of her children survived.

Do you want to go back in time? People who don't vaccinate their children reduce population immunity and contribute to the likelihood of old-time diseases making a comeback.

Whatever. But vaccines work and save lives. End of.

I’m currently doing a medically related PhD but I wouldn’t do my own analysis of the research about vaccinations. You don’t know how else to research this because this isn’t your area of expertise.

This is exactly why we have public health experts, who do have this expertise and experience, to analyse the research and recommend a programme of vaccinations along with guidance for any individuals that may need something different to the usual vaccination programme (for example due to allergies or complicated health needs).

The information you’re given about childhood vaccinations is based on this expertise and experience that. We as individuals are not going to find something new and reliable that hasn’t already been analysed during the decision making.

There are so many things that aren’t clear when we’re raising children and we do need to read about and make a decision, but this isn’t a situation where that is helpful. It’s understandable though that you feel this way in this age where we’re given access to so much information online and where you want the right thing for your child.

My eldest son was very allergic to egg. His first MMR was delayed due to this, so I relied on herd immunity until he had it in hospital under medical care.

I also may, or may not, we don't know, have had a serious complication from the Covid vaccine. My 3rd covid vaccine probably (it's a long complicated story!). I have still gone on to have my 4th and 5th vaccines.

but there is an extremely clear and very very common example that you can see - chicken pox! In the UK, not a standard vaccine given, and it goes around every single school and nursery several times a year and almost every child gets it at some point, to the point it's unusual if you haven't had it and people even want their child to yet it young to "get it over with". In other developed countries, children get it generally with the MMR and nobody gets chicken pox. Honestly. Nobody. I live in Germany now, I have been here for ten years and I have come across I think one case of chicken pox.

This is a really good example - I did look at paying to get it but money was tight and DH said it a common illness. Older two both had it - DS eczema made it much worse for him something I wasn't aware it could do so of prior to him getting it- he was miserable. Though DD2 never had it - MIL never had any childhood illness at all either - so don't know if she'll get it later which would be much worse or if she's like MIL.

A girl at toddler group was actually hospitalized with it - last in large family to get it - literally everywhere - I didn't know that could happen.

I really wish they'd just put in on the NHS vaccination list - UK has been very late doing so.

I researched immunisations for my dissertation at university. I can't remember the statistics exactly but there is a tiny tiny risk of your child having complications from a vaccine. The chance of your child having complications from one of the preventable diseases you can be vaccinated against is much much higher.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-recommends-chickenpox-vaccine-in-childhood-immunisation-programme

Vaccines aren't really that much of a money making exercise, apart from in as much as we need to pay pharmaceutical companies for any type of drug because of the way we've set up our society so it's an industry not a public good.

Won't someone think of the iron lung and leg brace companies that lost out when polio vaccination really kicked in?

What about sales of antimicrobials to treat the infections that kill and permanently damage when babies and young children contract vaccine-preventable diseases? These are a constant money spinner because of resistance so they're always trying to come up with new ones?

It's always a conundrum how Big Pharma are milking us dry by selling us vaccines to prevent disease, but also involved in suppressing the development of a Cure for Cancer [TM] to sell us chemotherapy - the same people often appear to believe both.

Agree. I find it appalling that we still casually just accept chicken pox in the UK when so many countries vaccinate against it.

Why do you think the NHS are so keen to get your child vaccinated when it costs them money to do so? What do they have to gain?

Have you researched what the various illnesses might do to your unvaccinated child? However much a parent might agonise about introducing vaccines into their child's body you need to understand that the illnesses themselves would not hesitate to invade that vulnerable body.

People fixate about the MMR because of the autism controversy but what about other illnesses such as meningitis, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, hep b? How many illnesses would you want your child to be exposed to or contract. What if they caught two at the same time? How about illnesses mostly eradicated such as polio? Why are so few people now placed in iron lungs? "In 1959, there were 1,200 people using iron lungs in the U.S., but by 2017, there were only three. Due to the near eradication of polio in most of the world with Jonas Salk's vaccine in 1952, the use of iron lungs is largely obsolete."

You’ll find an article on the internet to support just about any theory you come up with! Once you follow one rabbit hole the algorithms will
show you more. Just stop googling and go with the majority and vaccinate.

@confusedaboutclothes - I would suggest that you google some of the diseases that the vaccines protect against - diphtheria, polio, tetanus, measles and whooping cough can all kill children, or cause lasting damage.

Of course, it is unlikely that your child will come across these diseases - because the majority of parents get their children vaccinated, creating herd immunity, so these diseases cannot get a foothold. But they haven't disappeared altogether, and to my mind, the risks to a child if they catch one of these diseases are far, far greater than any potential risk from the vaccine.

It is also worth remembering that these vaccines have been around for decades, so the evidence about their safety is very well established.

I do understand being anxious about these things - I am an anxious person, and I do know how hard it is to get rid of these intrusive thoughts and worries - but I hope this thread will reassure you so you can go ahead and get your baby vaccinated.

Pull up a chair and have a chat with me.

I’m a nurse practitioner in a GP surgery. I’ve worked in primary care for 24 years and nursed in hospitals for nearly ten years before that. I have given thousands and thousands of baby immunisations.

I can tell you about the 15 year old I nursed on a Paeds ward in a persistent vegetative state due to measles encephalitis if you like. Or the unvaccinated 18 month old we admitted recently with meningitis who is still on PICU. Or the handful of babies and toddlers I’ve seen with vaccine preventable pneumonia. Or the parents of children, immigrants from countries with limited options for vaccines who have walked miles in the searing heat to have their babies vaccinated. Or the adults I’ve met over the years with physical disabilities, deafness, learning disabilities and brain damage from things like polio, measles, rubella and diphtheria.

No one likes vaccinating babies. I hate hurting small babies with sharp stingy needles, and it goes against every one of our maternal instincts to hold our new, vulnerable, precious baby whilst someone injects them with god knows what. But it’s way better than holding their tiny hand when they’re on a ventilator, or god forbid holding their coffin.

You're focusing on the anti-Vax posts? Give over

I gave my daughter her vaccines up until the age of 1.
At her 1 year vaccines she had a very bad reaction and it left her suffering server side affects for 2 years.
I can honestly say il never vaccinate her again.

Oh and please don’t think of the invitations, reminder letters and texts as you being hassled or pressured. Think of it as just ways of trying to ensure we keep your baby as safe as possible. We know life with a baby is busy and tiring, so we try and help you make and keep appointments to avoid any further stress.

I know this is a very sensitive subject, but i’m asking please for FACTS only - I don’t want answers like ‘because the NHS recommends you to vaccinate your baby etc’

But those are the facts. The NHS recommends it because it protects your child from some diseases that can be fatal.

Id like to point out i’m not ‘anti vax’ as such, but covid really opened my eyes to researching vaccines etc

I don't think the routine vaccines are in the same ballpark as the Covid vaccine. Any problems with that one are because the vaccine was rushed out really quickly. Whereas we've been using the routine ones for ages and they were well tested.

Just a bit of anecdata - I am 48 and my mum was antivaxx. I ended up with visual impairment due to brain damage from measles aged 5, then asthma as a result of whooping cough at age 12.

Oh gosh this is a very hot topic. When I was a little girl in the 90s I used to go with my grandmother who helped do physio for a lady of my mum’s generation who got measles in the early 70s when she was 8 or 9 and was permanently brain damaged from it. She died a few years ago. I think because of vaccines we don’t have that collective memory of how bad it can be to contract these diseases