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To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent

1000 replies

pregahes · 08/01/2024 21:53

It's a real shame for someone who created incredible music to have their legacy at risk. It’s just tragic, considering the impact his music had on so many. It's tragic either way, if he's guilty for the victims and if he's innocent for himself.

I'm a huge fan and at one point t thought he was guilty but kore recently change of heart. I think there would be more victims if he weee in fact guilty. Somethings doesnt add up.

It's tragic

OP posts:
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43
Waitingfordoggo · 10/01/2024 23:11

Yes absolutely @nolongersurprised.

Mirabai · 10/01/2024 23:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/01/2024 23:29

DownNative is a man @Mirabai.

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

There it is - resorting to clear personal attacks instead of focusing the argument made.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines. 🤦‍♂️

Tourmalines · 10/01/2024 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yes , and it isn’t changing my mind .

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:32

Do the apologists have a beacon or something?!

Like a klaxon goes off “Come here and express your pure hatred for children who are raped”

O mean it boils down to it people believe this obvious pedophile is innocent because he’s good at his job. Think about that, superfans. You literally are mocking raped children because their abuser is good at their job.

Anyone who think Jackson is innocent is a danger to children. I had to report a teacher at my kid’s school when Leaving a Neverland aired as she publicly expressed her belief that Jackson is innocent and his accusers are liars on social media. She teaches 6 and 7 year olds.

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:33

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:30

There it is - resorting to clear personal attacks instead of focusing the argument made.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines. 🤦‍♂️

Your ‘argument’ was a load of word salad that proved absolutely nothing other than the nonce has a good defence team who are seasoned at trying to throw relevant information out

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:33

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:05

Not necessarily so. Settlements in the civil process do not axiomatically indicate guilt and other explanations are available for various types of settlements aka civil resolution.

Michael Jackson lost four crucial motions in court.

These court motions were:

Motion For Trial Preference (Civil Trial) by Chandler - GRANTED.

Motion To Compel Deposition by Michael Jackson - DISMISSED W/O PREJUDICE

Motion To Compel Mr Jackson's Deposition by Chandler - GRANTED.

Request To Stay Ruling by Michael Jackson - DENIED.

Key to understanding these four motions and their significance is in knowing what the Chandler's civil lawsuit was about.

  1. sexual battery
  2. battery
  3. seduction
  4. willful misconduct
  5. intentional infliction of emotional distress
  6. fraud
  7. negligence

The civil lawsuit was filed whilst the criminal investigation was still ongoing.

Civil lawsuits allow hearsay and circumstantial evidence.

Criminal investigations do not allow these.

As a result, filing a civil lawsuit at the same time as a criminal investigation can lead to a defendant being prejudiced against or suffer self-incrimination.

So, on 14th September 1993, the Chandler's lawyer, Larry Feldman, filed their $30million lawsuit.

Michael Jackson's lawyer, Bertram Fields, filed Michael Jackson's answer to this lawsuit on 29th October 1993.

Discovery process can then start. This means:

  1. Depositions are taken
  2. Request for Production of Documents
  3. Request for Admissions aka admit to certain facts
  4. Form Interrogatories

A protective order can also be done which is blocking or limiting requests or limiting information requested.

At the same time as all of that going on, Bert Fields filed a Motion for Stay of Discovery and Trial on behalf of Michael Jackson.

Michael Jackson wanted Discovery AND a Trial in the civil case to be imposed until the six year statute of limitations ran out.

That would have meant ZERO discovery and ZERO criminal trial until 1999.

By then, the outcome of the criminal investigation would have been known well before 1999.

If this motion was granted to Michael Jackson, the Los Angeles and Santa Barbara District Attorneys would NOT have been able to use the civil trial in order to build a criminal case against Michael Jackson.

People either forget or don't know the Chandler's refused to cooperate with the police.

This forced the police to want to take information from the civil trial in order to attempt to prosecute Michael Jackson.

Los Angeles District Attorney, Gil Garcetti sought to change the law in order to compel Jordan Chandler to testify.

Why would he try to do that?

Simply because the Chandlers were not cooperating with law enforcement during the investigation.

So, we go on to the Motion To Compel Michael Jackson's Deposition.

The Chandler's lawyer, Mr L. Feldman, wanted to depose MJ and 11 other people including Anthony Pellicano, LaToya Jackson, Bianca Francia, Gayle Goforth, etc.

The discovery material they wanted from Michael Jackson was:

  • Form interrogatories
  • First Set of Special Interrogatories
  • First Set of Request for Production of Documents
  • Second Set of Request for Production of Documents
  • Second Set of Special Interrogatories

Michael's legal team responded to all of this by asserting his Fifth Amendment Rights.

The Motion To Compel Michael Jackson's Deposition infringed Michael Jackson's constitutional rights due to his treatment for drug addiction. He needed to resolve his medical issues first.

The other reason given for the objection to Michael's deposition was that Michael Jackson should not be
deposed until the criminal investigation was concluded and any potential criminal prosecution disposed of.

When the Chandler's lawyer objected by pointing to Michael's Mexico deposition, Michael's attorney, Eve H. Wagner stated that MJ was glassy eyed, could hardly stay awake, had difficulty holding physical objects, slurred speech and could not focus on issues.

Therefore, Beechy Colcough issued a statement on 20th November confirming Michael had a drug problem requiring treatment.

"That Michael Jackson be given the same right to have his testimony heard for the first time at trial without fear that the prosecution will try to impeach his credibility.....the law enforcement agency has sought and gained access to all discovery in this action." - Johnnie Cochrane

Cochrane also opposed the Motion to Compel because some information sought by the Chandler's was irrelevant to the case, some was protected by Attorney-Client privilege and that it was too early to request Michael Jackson's financial information.

13th December 1993, Johnnie Cochrane takes the lead in Michael's case and issues a Motion For Protective Order.

He argued that Michael had a right to be protected from invasion of privacy, embarrassment and undue annoyance.

Same applies to the witnesses.

And that Michael Jackson had a right to receive a fair, impartial trial.

He argued that if this Motion For Protective Order was not granted, then Michael Jackson was entitled to a Stay of the Civil action because law enforcement were delaying their investigation in order to use any Civil Discovery against Michael Jackson.

All these motions were designed to protect Michael Jackson from violation of constitutional rights and self-incrimination.

The case Pacers v Superior Court was used to support this argument that it's unconstitutional not to stay the Civil action whilst a criminal investigation is pending.

Chandler's lawyer, unfortunately, argued that Jordan was entitled to a speedy trial because a child's memory is still developing.

Problem is that law they used to argue this was intended for young kids such as four year olds.

Anyway, Michael lost all four motions.

He couldn't take the depositions of Jordan, Evan and June Chandler or Dave Schwartz.

Since the motion for Trial Preference was granted to Chandler, the trial was to be held in March 1994.

Michael was handicapped in defending himself since he could not take their depositions.

Clear violation of the constitutional right to a fair trial, to defend himself and to question his accusers.

Unsurprisingly, all of this set the stage for the settlement itself.

In lieu of winning the motions Michael Jackson needed, reaching a settlement in the Chandler civil action was the SECOND BEST way for Michael Jackson to protect himself and his constitutional rights.

It meant, as a consequence, Michael Jackson could then focus on the criminal case and any potential criminal trial.

Finally, it is now NOT possible for any case involving felony charges to be resolved through a civil compromise aka settlement. Only misdemeanors can be resolved via settlements.

This change in State law vindicates Michael Jackson's legal team's argument for staying the civil case until 1999.

It's important to note that if a person receives reimbursement via a settlement, the District Attorney's Office could still attempt to pursue criminal charges against the defendant. Settlements do NOT end any criminal proceeding.

While I'm here, the 1993 civil case was NOT settled in relation to sexual abuse allegations.

It was settled in relation to claims of negligence.

That's a big difference.

To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
pregahes · 10/01/2024 23:33

@KarenNotAKaren

I can't believe you reported the teacher that's ridiculous!!

OP posts:
KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:35

I’ve just AS @DownNative

WOW - superfan indeed

Mate, your idol is a nonce. Wake up. Why on EARTH would you argue otherwise?! Why do you think he isn’t a nonce?

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:35

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:33

Your ‘argument’ was a load of word salad that proved absolutely nothing other than the nonce has a good defence team who are seasoned at trying to throw relevant information out

On the contrary, it clearly explained the legal process including the infringement of constitutional rights under the law in the State Of California.

Something that has in the years since been upheld by a change in the law to mean ONLY misdemeanors can be settled whereas felonies cannot.

That's significant in itself. 🤔

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:36

pregahes · 10/01/2024 23:33

@KarenNotAKaren

I can't believe you reported the teacher that's ridiculous!!

She called two sexually abused men liars. She teaches little boys the same age as the boys Jackson started abusing. I absolutely reported her, she has a duty of care to keep children safe and she thinks a man couldn’t be an abuser because he’s good at this job. She should not be teaching kids.

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:37

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:33

While I'm here, the 1993 civil case was NOT settled in relation to sexual abuse allegations.

It was settled in relation to claims of negligence.

That's a big difference.

How come the nonce apologists only ever give a grainy screenshot and not an actual source as ‘evidence’?

Mirabai · 10/01/2024 23:37

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:30

There it is - resorting to clear personal attacks instead of focusing the argument made.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines. 🤦‍♂️

Just to be clear: it is nothing personal, simply an objective comment on your perspective.

No-one need take my word for it - simply paste your username + ‘Michael Jackson’ into Advanced Search box - anyone is free to see your stance for themselves.

I’d be surprised if defending a paedophile and trying to discredit his victims is in line with MN Talk Guidelines - so you might consider that.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 10/01/2024 23:38

Do the apologists have a beacon or something?!

Quite possibly; you can set Google to do automatic keyword searches and to alert you to new results. Businesses use such functions in order to identify and manage negative reviews on social media, before their brands are damaged.

Or it may be that the thread has been flagged on an MJ fandom forum.

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Alloftheskies · 10/01/2024 23:40

I would have reported that teacher. That's not a view to air around children. She would know its contentious. If she said that to actual children that's ridiculous.. I mean some of those children won't even know who Michael Jackson is and noe they will have gone home asking what the story is. Its clearly not an appropriate subject to be discussing in front of primary aged children. Regardless of anyones views it also sits seeds of doubt about victims being believed.. those children may get it into their heads that people wouldn't believe them if something were to happen to them. Not a debate to have in front of kids

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:42

@DownNative it appears you have kids.

Would you let them sleep with Jackson? Because after all he’s innocent right!

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:43

Alloftheskies · 10/01/2024 23:40

I would have reported that teacher. That's not a view to air around children. She would know its contentious. If she said that to actual children that's ridiculous.. I mean some of those children won't even know who Michael Jackson is and noe they will have gone home asking what the story is. Its clearly not an appropriate subject to be discussing in front of primary aged children. Regardless of anyones views it also sits seeds of doubt about victims being believed.. those children may get it into their heads that people wouldn't believe them if something were to happen to them. Not a debate to have in front of kids

She said it on her public Facebook page as we have mutual friends so it popped up on my timeline. I was thinking about all the parents receiving support for their children in some way who would have seen that this teachers disbelieves a child making a disclosure because it happens to be against her idol

Circularargument · 10/01/2024 23:44

No, it isn't "tragic" even if he was. He was one musician, that's all, however successful.

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:46

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:37

How come the nonce apologists only ever give a grainy screenshot and not an actual source as ‘evidence’?

Ridiculous post.

The images themselves are from the 1993 settlement itself and are genuine. It was leaked by American channel, Court TV in 2004.

KarenNotAKaren · 10/01/2024 23:47

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:46

Ridiculous post.

The images themselves are from the 1993 settlement itself and are genuine. It was leaked by American channel, Court TV in 2004.

Post a link then not a grainy redacted screenshot.

He paid off a child accusing him of sexual abuse. It doesn’t matter what the legal papers say - he’s a nonce silencing his victim. How can you ACTUALLY think otherwise.

If Barry from Asda behaved this way how would you feel?

Eaglemom · 10/01/2024 23:52

Sometimes I’ve wondered knowing what we know now, all the lessons we could learn from past cases of celebrities getting away with sexual abuse, the amount of education and easily found info out there … how the hell paedophiles are still able to operate in the most basic ways….
well many of you nonce defenders on this thread have answered that question.

Mirabai · 10/01/2024 23:52

While I'm here, the 1993 civil case was NOT settled in relation to sexual abuse allegations.

Bollocks. All the attached shows is that in settling MJ admitted nothing.

Chandler and his father later brought individual lawsuits which were consolidated into one - both accusing MJ of breaking the terms of the settlement. Chandler’s own lawsuit directly references the previous case of “repeated sexual molestation”.

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:53

Mirabai · 10/01/2024 23:37

Just to be clear: it is nothing personal, simply an objective comment on your perspective.

No-one need take my word for it - simply paste your username + ‘Michael Jackson’ into Advanced Search box - anyone is free to see your stance for themselves.

I’d be surprised if defending a paedophile and trying to discredit his victims is in line with MN Talk Guidelines - so you might consider that.

Edited

Your post isn't an example of an objective perspective whatsoever.

But calling people a "paedophile apologist" is a clear example of a personal attack. You're adding nothing to the debate, so I likely won't be responding to you further. 🤷‍♂️

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