unruly kids

[xxxJess123xxx]

hi all my kids are just turned 8 and just turned 5, oldest girl and youngest boy.

their behaviour is actually driving me to depression and I genuinely cannot cope.
it starts from the moment they wake. DD won't get out of bed, dressed, teeth you name it, so won't do it. iv tried numerous punishments and it works for an hour then back to square one. She can be rude, defiant and answers back. Pushes the boundaries constantly. Talks in an annoying deep loud voice (purposely) when over excited, which is constantly.
Is apparently an angel at school and doing well in all areas, excelling actually so its obviously just me.

DS is an absolute nightmare. Taking him to the shops sees him run off, pick things up from the shelves, not listen, I tell him off or hold him hand so you throws himself around/on the floor and screams blue murder. I have had people tut and huff and stare at me which is actually soul destroying.
Indoors he runs full pelt everywhere, does front flips on the sofa, is so loud and doesn't listen to a word I say. Again I have tried all sorts of punishments, time out in room, taking toys away, taking weekend screen time away (not allowed any Monday to Friday as makes behaviour 10x worse) but again nothing works.
I have even tried the over the top love bombing parenting but it only works for a short time and it just back fires in my face.

Together, they fight constantly, with hitting, kicking, shoving and slamming doors in faces. Just before bed is the worse, with them genuinely acting possessed running and fighting.

No one wants to come round and see me.
I hate taking them anywhere
I hate being at home.
im so embarrassed by how much I have failed as a parent.
I just feel like I am slowly loosing my mind.
I have a husband, he works long hours. I work school hours. They behave the exact same for him.

Im so sorry for the essay and writing it all on here but I don't know how to carry on xx

We have friends who have 2 kids just like this and I'm sorry to say that I am the friend who avoids seeing them when the kids are around for the same reasons.

The mum in that case is actually a primary school teacher with an excellent reputation for classroom control so I just wanted to share that it's not your fault and can happen to anyone.

They have tried parenting classes, therapy, a nanny and even time away from the kids. None of it worked. One of the kids is, however, starting to get better as he gets older - less rudeness and insane destructive behaviour coming from him these days (though the fighting and arguing back is still horrific) now he is 10. Its' not an ideal answer but it does go to show that it can improve.

hope you find a solution soon.

Op its really about going back to basics here.

Firstly cut out sweets, chocolate, sugar juice etc.

They now need to start understanding the consequences of their actions, for example thats fine if you dont eat your dinner/lunch/breakfast but there is absolutely nothing else to eat.

Do they have IPADS, if so use that as a punishment, eg, you dont want to brush our teeth, ok you have lost your ipad for 1 day.

Do they have any clubs/hobbies they do, try and find something they are good at and get them into a club, gymnastics/dancing/tennis/running, these clubs are a privilege so behavior permits whether they go etc.

Its really about following through on absolutely everything and being quite strict to start off with.

"Your behavior this week has been awful so you will not be going to X birthday party"

Whilst you may feel its extreme to start off with you will also need to provide alot of love and positive praise when things do go well.

" you helped mummy so much in the shops today why dont you pick a wee sweet"

"since we have had such a great week why dont we have a movie night tonight"

Ugh again with the focus on punishment... That clearly isn't working.also you have to give warnings of consequence, not just randomly decide what will happen.

Imagine if you never knew the consequences were any time you were late to work for any reason at all.

And in your world, they lose an iPad for an entire day for not brushing teeth? What incentive do they have to behave if they've lost the high value item over something so small???

Jesus Christ.

It's much easier to say "brush your teeth then you can play on iPad until 9:30". (In 45 minutes time) So if they spend 15 minutes brushing their teeth, then they have a natural consequence of having less time on the iPad... Something they can easily control the next time. They might be inclined to spend 3 minutes brushing teeth.

Either way the teeth are clean, there's a definite limit and no need to "punish"

But initially its trying to get a balance,

It's much easier to say "brush your teeth then you can play on iPad until 9:30". (In 45 minutes time)

This doesnt work if your rushing to get out the door for school and they need to brush teeth, pack bag, get dressed and have breakfast then walk to school all for 9am, school mornings no ipads allowed.

And yes of course we are focusing on punishment first because their behavior is quite frankly atrocious and it needs to be matched with a rather extreme push back whilst also ensuring positive praise and recognition as and when required.

Kids are not stupid, they understand bad behavior.

Imagine if you never knew the consequences were any time you were late to work for any reason at all.

Refusing to brush teeth once isnt the end of the world but this isnt what OP is talking about, shes talking about consistent bad behavior to the point its affecting her daily life....if your late to work every day you naturally know your going to get sacked.

But the kids are constantly punished and no improvement in behaviour is seen. Because they actually need some actual positive reinforcement. Not constant punishment.

Consequences as opposed to punishment I'd say.

I have 2 boys with hyperactive ADHD. Once diagnosed we were appalled looking back how negative we had been with them. Always getting at them for little things (like how they hold cutlery - turns out they're dyspraxic too). No wonder they would explode every so often.

They were lovely at school but manic outside. Its the cola bottle analogy. They hold themselves so tightly at school (bottle being shaken) that when out they explode (lid taken off).

We lived in a flat and it was so hard. They had school 8am to 4pm (not UK). Then 1-2 hours in the park (depending on when it shut - hated the winter cos it shut at 5pm!). Then home. Weekends we took them out every morning and every afternoon no matter the weather (only exception was heatwave).

I highly recommend getting them out as much as possible especially allowing a run around after school. Your son needs to decompress after a hard day of sitting still and listening and obeying.

Also, decide what to have a hard line on and a soft. We let go of anything that wasn't particularly important (cutlery holding, making bed, etc) but a hard line on rough behaviour like pushing.

That's a lovely update! Hope things continue to improve. I think it's very easy to get dragged down into a negative spiral and it's takes time to learn to try and look at things in a more positive light.

I agree with taking them outside. I think boys in particular are like labradors who need two good walks a day in order to be able to settle.

I only have 1 so there was no sibling fighting but DS was a ball of energy that needed directing into something positive.

I also agree about finding something to praise. Don't take them to the supermarket either - it's boring for adults let alone kids! Do it online or go alone when your partner is at home.

And yes natural consequences. Bad behaviour at an event/ day out they get 1 warning and then you take them home. It's a punishment for you normally but I think I only had to do it twice.

It's really hard parenting and working when the other parent is largely absent. So important to try and carve out some time for yourself on your own to recharge batteries. It's exhausting and relentless.

Couple of things jump out at me though (speaking as a parent/ educator) :

'Catch the good behaviour' - label and praise it. Often. Pick your battles with the bad behaviour - don't 'notice' everything but be consistent about consequences when a boundary is crossed. Give them responsibility - tasks in the home at this age. Finally - structure - they are less likely to question or fight back against strong routines. Counterbalance with a fun evening once a week when things more relaxed - maybe Fri.

I would also hugely recommend a structured team activity to embed values of teamwork and abiding by rules. Rugby is brilliant for this, especially for boys who need a physical outlet. Swimming also. You do have to physically tire them out to some degree. Maybe cubs another option as it's so value driven and outdoorsy. I would probably get them to pick one each and then that can become their 'thing'.

I'd try to involve them in elements of ordinary life like grocery shopping - even if you don't bring them with you to do the actual shopping they can still be involved in creating a shopping list, putting groceries away, checking items off the list as they're putting them away, etc.

I have two boys and mornings used to be so hectic. I wrote a short list of hands, face, teeth and clothes and stuck it on the bathroom cabinet. They like to follow it and if they forget what they have to do next (I still oversee them to make sure teeth are done properly etc) then they like to check it themselves.

Praise for the small things like sharing, putting shoes on, carrying the plate to sink, getting ready etc...

Supermarkets used to be a nightmare for while. Running off together and being so loud. I tend to online shop now but it helped to give them both a task. X can you look and tell me when you see the oranges, Y can you help me put the stuff in the basket when I hand it to you. They love helping load it onto the till now. Give them a short list of 3/4 items and it keeps them occupied.

update
so we have had a much better day. I can't believe how much of a difference/change it has made to the day. Don't get me wrong, it still was carnage at times but I have been thinking about your replies all day.

So after school, we had snacks and then my son has little pop up goals which he wanted to put up in the front room. I would usually say no, but I thought about the getting rid of energy. So we played kicking a soft teddy into the goals. My DD saw and joined in. Few arguments, but overall we had a good time.

Tiny little things I was praising, well done for kicking the ball so well, thank you for waiting your turn etc

I would have tried to get outside but its -1 and snowing so football inside would have to do.

We then played hide and seek guns as a family. Lots of running and shouting but good type (sorry neighbours!)

They have just gone to bed and I have told each one thank you for such a lovely afternoon and bedtime.

xx

Amazing 😃

My DS is! It’s common. Be warned the process is long, but support can be given prior to diagnosis (especially if school get onside). Our school gives support based on the improvements I see at home because they don’t see the difference in him having putty in class (due to masking), but we see a much calmer child at the end of the school day coming home!

As a suggestion, have you tried the token system? It works really well with my DS when a lot of other reward charts didn’t. We’ve also lowered demands in some instances, which has worked well. Lots of exercise can be really helpful, so we are an all-weather family and (if poss for you) can they do sports groups that appeal?

We do all the normal parenting stuff and have strong boundaries, but for us many of the recommended standard techniques simply didn’t work. Sleep, for example, can be difficult, so we use a combination of down regulation, strong chamomile tea and a weighted blanket. It doesn’t take away his restlessness or inability to sleep but it has reduced the get-ups and increased the likelihood of him falling asleep a lot. I also bring fiddle toys and putty to shops, so there is less impulsive/mindless picking up and running off. Equally, the token system comes in handy there. My ds used to run into people! It didn’t matter how many times he was reminded - he’s grown out of that now, but it was like he didn’t see them.

We also do a lot of talking about feelings, emotions and socially appropriate behaviour in calm moments. We use books or tv programmes or just real life as prompts to explain why you might do a certain action or how something is a kind and positive thing (or not). PACE has been helpful for us (Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity, Empathy). Obviously, there are situations where you’d sort it first (eg. Smacking a sibling) but we’d then help them explore the feeling when they were calmer as well as reinforcing a boundary.

Don’t give up OP. Try new things, seek assessment for ADHD if you feel it fits your DC and find out about the support prior to diagnosis in your area. Parenting is not always the root of the problem, but the way we parent can make big positive changes (even if we get a few raised eyebrows along the way).

Just read the update (patchy internet seemed to not load the pages properly) - how lovely! So pleased, OP!

Keep on OP, remember it's going to take time and not every day will be good. But you will all reap the rewards of a better, positive and more open relationship with your kids who don't need to act up to get noticed. And they'll be the kids that come and find you to help them when things go wrong, not the kids that hide stuff from you for fear of reprimand.

@xxxJess123xxx

That sounds really positive. DS always used to play footie indoors with one of those IKEA footballs & I used to sit for ages throwing it to him while he was in goal. Hide & seek sounds fab 🙌🏻

I feel terribly guilty that’s it’s been bad for so long and it’s all my fault

It’s only your fault if you don’t see the issue or refuse to do something about it .

Recognizing the issue is half the battle. Keep going.

I think you need someone to tell you how great you’ve been today - you’ve made a dofffernce to those children already. Imagine what a week will achieve or a month!

Keep going.

What a lovely update! It will be a bumpy road ahead but lots more positivity for all

Thats fantastic OP! And DONT beat yourself up. You're an excellent mum. You asked for help and you're trying to improve (and have by the sound of it!). What more could you do?

I'm the PP with 2 boys with ADHD. Diagnosed aged 9 and 7. Believe me I have felt crap about how I "let them down" (the diagnosis for DS1 was a huge surprise). But we've muddled through and things are so much better now.

Your children are unique. They didn't come with a manual. It's not like you were told what to do and ignored it! Some methods might work, some might not. But the important thing is to try, and also to see the fact that you are trying.

you have really helped, everyone of you to try and look at things in a different light xx

Wow what an fab update! It's amazing how quickly kids can turn around too. I am sure they really feel loved by you with all the fun you had ❤️🩷

Parenting is hard and we all have disastrous days when you can't wait for it to be over! I would often find water therapy in the form of a warm bath for overwrought kids before bed could really calm them down.

Remember at the.end of one of those days: Everyone fed, nobody dead. 😂

I would highly recommend parenting coaching/teaching from "Love and Logic" they are based in the USA and I was living there when I took one of their parenting classes.

It was so funny to me as so much of it seemed good old fashioned common sense, and most of it felt exactly like my mum had parented us!

It is very straightforward and extremely helpful. I learnt some gems that I used for years after.

Although we can have a bad impression of American kids I knew a lot they were lovely with great parenting.

I see now you can do courses online. As parents, especially if we didn't have good role models in can be hard without encouragement and support.
I highly recommend them, they are very straightforward and down to earth and use natural consequences as much as possible i.e. children learn from life experience and not from you having to discipline all the time.
They also gave really great advice about how to talk through things with children when they have problems at school and friendship problems where you help them problem-solve, rather than rush in and rescue.

https://www.loveandlogic.com/