unruly kids

[xxxJess123xxx]

hi all my kids are just turned 8 and just turned 5, oldest girl and youngest boy.

their behaviour is actually driving me to depression and I genuinely cannot cope.
it starts from the moment they wake. DD won't get out of bed, dressed, teeth you name it, so won't do it. iv tried numerous punishments and it works for an hour then back to square one. She can be rude, defiant and answers back. Pushes the boundaries constantly. Talks in an annoying deep loud voice (purposely) when over excited, which is constantly.
Is apparently an angel at school and doing well in all areas, excelling actually so its obviously just me.

DS is an absolute nightmare. Taking him to the shops sees him run off, pick things up from the shelves, not listen, I tell him off or hold him hand so you throws himself around/on the floor and screams blue murder. I have had people tut and huff and stare at me which is actually soul destroying.
Indoors he runs full pelt everywhere, does front flips on the sofa, is so loud and doesn't listen to a word I say. Again I have tried all sorts of punishments, time out in room, taking toys away, taking weekend screen time away (not allowed any Monday to Friday as makes behaviour 10x worse) but again nothing works.
I have even tried the over the top love bombing parenting but it only works for a short time and it just back fires in my face.

Together, they fight constantly, with hitting, kicking, shoving and slamming doors in faces. Just before bed is the worse, with them genuinely acting possessed running and fighting.

No one wants to come round and see me.
I hate taking them anywhere
I hate being at home.
im so embarrassed by how much I have failed as a parent.
I just feel like I am slowly loosing my mind.
I have a husband, he works long hours. I work school hours. They behave the exact same for him.

Im so sorry for the essay and writing it all on here but I don't know how to carry on xx

It sounds like you’ve all got into a negative cycle. Do you reward and praise them when they are good? Give lots of attention when they are good?

Iv brought them to the park this morning after the smacking incident

a good run around while I was freezing cold but I’m trying
as soon as we are back in the car they are fighting and screaming
it’s very hard
I’ll try more praising but it doesn’t come naturally

Well, they're not going to magically change their learned behaviour in a short few hours.

Well done for getting them out.

There were probably a few opportunities to praise them going to the park, for example;

• getting ready to go out e.g. putting on shoes quickly etc
• waiting for you to do something like.. get the parking ticket.
• getting in/out of the car nicely
• playing with each other nicely at some point
• leaving the park without complaints

You have to REALLY look hard. But they will have done some good stuff.

As for the fighting in the car, hmm I'd try and keep them out there longer! They obviously weren't worn out enough!

Next time, perhaps try to go for a walk/run/scoot/explore together so you're moving as well, so you don't get so cold. Can you walk to the park?

I don't have many pearls, but I sympathise enormously and certainly wouldn't tut at you.

Would a little reverse psychology work? Your DD loves school, could you get the teacher onside to get the whole class talking about their "get up and out" routine. Dangle the notion that children who do, have a much better day etc. As I child I did EVERYTHING a teacher said, might that work? At the door the teacher asks if she got up and did? Massive praise if so, sad face and better luck tomorrow if not.

Examine the pinch points. Knock shopping on the head, as it's clearly a source of friction. Then talk long and loudly about what a shame it is you can't go together anymore as it would've been nice to go to feed the ducks afterwards. Shame that couldn't happen etc...

Also, sign them up for AS clubs. Gym, ju-jitsu etc wear them out totally. Then tag team for when you get home. Pity you couldn't have had ice cream, but you know, you blew it by bickering in the car. Sad face, bet we can do it better next time etc

I'm not a fan of gentle parenting. I'm a fan of laying down the law and having the last word.

I do not advocate using the word Please to children who are headstrong or inclined to think they are in charge and what you say doesn't count. It gives them the wrong idea.

Another consequence for misbehaviour in the supermarket is the complete lack of any snacks or favourite breakfast cereals for the child who misbehaves, if leaving without the groceries is a victory for him. A reminder of the reason why there are no Rice Krispies or whatever every time he asks for them might be salutary. Order what you need for yourself and the rest of the family.

I do urge you to make them do chores. Children who spend their time fighting and bouncing around on the furniture and misbehaving when out are very possibly bored and lacking in self esteem. Doing chores together with you teaching them how is also a way to bond. Stickers or marbles in a reward jar for chores can be motivators. You can introduce the concept of the family working together as a team too, with a bonus reward of some nice family activity as a reward.

Part of the chore regime could be DS helping you find certain grocery items or doing a grocery bingo card in the supermarket - checking off your list as you go round. Is he too big to sit in the trolley?

For the constant fighting, it's important to have a zero tolerance policy.
Pull over and stop driving if they fight in the car. Tell them you'll get going again when there is perfect silence. Let them rip. Do not try to intervene except to tell them it's their choice whether you get home or not.
At home, step in and stop fights immediately. Pull them apart and restrain them if necessary. You need to demonstrate physical strength.
When there is a quiet time, insist they come up with better ideas for dispute resolution. Wait for them to verbalise their ideas. Write these down. Put their list of ways to resolve disputes on a wall.

You might find that holding family meetings weekly to review behaviour in the last week and set expectations for the coming week would help. The kids would have their chance to speak too, assessing their own performance.

Math, thank you for your reply. That really is helpful with some practical advice in how to put things into practice

i tried this evening with more praising. Well done for sitting nicely (5 mins but still lol) and he combed his sisters hair which I said well done that was very nice.

vitrio, yes my daughter is a big fan of the teacher. She looks up to her and teachers says she wishes all her kiddos were as lovely and well behaved as her which is ironic as she can be so awful at home. so yes, speaking to the teacher could work

i like the idea of a marble into a jar, i bet they would love that.

Gentle parenting is not permissive parenting. You can be the "ultimate authority" in your child's life... without using food as bribery or using threats to make them comply. You can be the authority whilst also understanding that children are living thinking feeling people that can't always emotionally regulate nor can they always express themselves properly and giving them the tools and opportunities to do the right thing etc.

It's not "ohhhhhhh noooowww Johnny kiiiiiiiiind hands baby. Don't hit baby sister in the face.boo hooo it hurts".

It's "no. We don't hit." and remove the child or baby from the violence. But ideally the parent will be able to prevent the child reaching breaking point in the first place. The child who hits is doing this for attention. The child who lashes out in anger or frustration is a child not having their needs met on some level. So to actually punish a small child for having a lack of control of emotions isn't ideal.
All a fear based/authoritarian relationship leads to is a failure to express your negative emotions in front of that figure of fear. They will hide things that they accidentally broke. They will hit people when the person can't see. They will lie to get out of trouble etc. and I can guarantee there's someone reading this going "huh.. whatever. My parents did this to me and I'm just fine" meanwhile they are doing thing alike dropping a glass and going "oh shit shit shit ..and trying to clear it up before anyone notices" or sitting there in seething silence whilst some upsets or angers then or finds it really hard to admit to people they're sad/feeling low. You don't feel like you can tell anyone you're being abused by your DH... you etc. this is because they learned from very young age that one people don't care to notice you're struggling and two when you do express a negative feeling/emotion you will be punished for it. So you learn to keep quiet, you learn to lie, you learn to keep the peace for fear of recrimination.

That's great you found some good stuff to praise.

What was their immediate response to the praise?

@xxxJess123xxx if you have struggled to praise them and you start doing it more (while being firm when you need to) I wouldn't be surprised if you get a very positive reaction, everyone loves to be appreciated. It may seem so obvious how to behave to us but children need to be shown and told over and over.

Also if screaming and fighting gets your attention but calmly playing you ignore, you will get more of the stuff you give your energy and attention to.

It may have been only 5 minutes of sitting nicely but that is where you start: small. Give him a big hug when he does it and tell him how much you enjoy being around him when he is calm so he understands what he doing right.

Just aim for small increases, 5 minutes to 7 minutes etc. Gradually that will lengthen as he is positively reinforced.

Don't let yourself get sucked into negative drama with them, separate them and tell them when they can calm down you will all do something they enjoy together and you will wait until then.

The teachers they love may be able to give you some useful pointers too as they obviously constantly deal with challenging behavior.

What was your own parenting like @xxxJess123xxx ?

Their reaction to the praise tbh was really good. They had huge smiles. I think it’s going to take a lot of getting used to as default I just have to correct bad behaviour all day long and miss any tiny bits of good which I should be praising

my own childhood was shouting and being hit unfortunately. I shout but have never hit my kids

Well done. You can see the immediate impact on the positive reinforcement - you'll soon notice the ongoing improvement in behaviour. :)

Whenever possible ignore/grey rock the unwanted behaviour.

Set clear expectations for them both and give easily identified warnings for things like leaving the park. So maybe "one last go in the roundabout - I'll give you five pushes and when it stops it's time to go" they have your attention (in playing with them) and a clear limit to the end of play. Even if you have to gee them up a bit to leave (old classic if racing to the car etc) if they show any hints of complaining/dragging at the end of roundabout.

I am pleased but daunted slightly if that makes sense. It’s seems a lot and exhausting to be “on” constantly if you see what I mean. But I’m hoping it will get better, and more second nature eventually.
it did feel good saying well done to them for a change xx

Be sure to make sure they get all of your attention when doing something like colouring or whatever. So if they're sitting nicely, colouring, sit with them and colour too.

Or even start some colouring in/kids puzzle/set up a board game yourself in front of the kids... If necessary pretend to struggle with the puzzle. Usually kids can't help themselves but to be drawn in to the activity and you might find yourself having a lovely time solving that 48 piece puzzle together, get them to help pack it up (praise!) and you can say how lovely it was at the time (praise)... And mention it AGAIN at dinner or the next day at breakfast or whatever how much you enjoyed the puzzle and spending that time together. (Even if the puzzle was a tedious bore lol) it was about the time together not the actual activity IYSWIM?

That’s amazing. Sounds like it’s a massive mental shift for you with your history but I agree with everyone on here, I think you’re doing the right thing.

When they’re arguing with each other, I would suggest that’s one of the things you can give low attention to, as long as nobody is really the victim or getting badly hurt and they’re both being as bad each other. just tell them calmly that they shouldn’t be fighting but don’t get drawn into it emotionally, especially if you’re stuck in the car at the time.

What I also find helpa is a random compliment to a kid. Like "DS you're really funny!"

It sounds like they have loads of excess energy, could you take them out to parks or sign them up to clubs to burn off some energy?

I think they need to learn to sit still. Try yoga classes or quiet activities like reading - do you sit and model reading? What about a jigsaw puzzle? Sit and play a game and after a few days withdraw slowly so they learn to play nicely together?

It will get easier. It's hard now because you're just starting. It would be the same as ... Learning to drive... Lots to take in, lots to learn, things to notice. When you first start driving you're wondering "how in earth will I remember how to look at the road, my wing mirrors, rear view, change gear and do it all in time to join the roundabout without stalling...aaarrrggh" but a few months later you're sailing round the roundabout swearing at a driver who didn't indicate.

Just as they will learn to behave differently... So will you. It will become normal and this time next year it will be second nature.

001 yes I’m hoping like you say it will become easier as time goes on and second nature.

scarlet, I used to read but not so much anymore because of the carnage at home. Ironically, my daughter is above expectations at school for reading so maybe I could model sitting quietly with a book but how that would go down with the whirlwind I’m not sure lol

they do like colouring, well DS for a very short time and I actually love it lol so that could be another rainy day activity I could try and really big up the praise

i will mention the hair combing again to my son tomorrow and re praise

I really appreciate all the replies

We used to do marbles & they would choose the list of rewards together & it would be things like going to shop to get sweets, comic, trip to museum, treat from Poundland etc

Routine - so for example they always go to same cafe on a Friday after school. Same routine in evening every night.

Lots of time limits for getting out the house. So it's not a sudden shock. Get everything lined up night before.

Keep them busy. It's less likely they will think about messing around. Anything to tire them out.

Can you sort out play date or activity for one and spend time with the other? Also get DH to take one & you take the other to do something. They can't argue & will get lots of attention too.

The teacher probably keeps them in same routine each day & so probably manages the class that way.

Might they be bored if you don't like taking them out?

Converse, yes we have discussed today after seeing the replies about some one on one time occasionly
he doesn’t want it to be every weekend as he says he works all week and it’s family time. I think some of it might be that when we are all together, I do the brunt whereas if he had one it’s 50:50 if you see what I mean

@xxxJess123xxx

Does DH ever take both out to give you chance to catch up at home or get anything done for yourself? He could take both swimming or something active.

No he doesn’t

@xxxJess123xxx it's great that you don't hit your kids, it shows how you have made positive choices to not repeat behavior you knew harmed you.

It may feel very unnatural and unfamiliar to give your kids positive reinforcement and praise, because it sounds like you didn't receive it yourself.

But the more you do it, the less it will feel like you are "on" and the more automatic it will be. Seeing them respond with big smiles also is positive reinforcement for you!

@xxxJess123xxx

I think it would be a huge help if he could take them out & give you some space. So maybe they go out with him for an hour Saturday morning & then go out together in the afternoon & then you give him a break Sunday morning. Or something similar.

Do the kids do any activities? Footie? Gym? Swimming? I would say mine leant loads about sharing, queuing up, waiting their turn etc from those activities. I realise they're expensive though.

It sounds like you don't get much support & haven't had a great role model from your own parents.

dragon, yes it feels very unfamiliar atm and probably weird for them too lol but if it helps the behaviour, im all for trying.

converse, my DD does Art Club, she's not very sporty in the slightest and has shown no interest in gymnastics etc and I wouldn't force her to do something she doesnt like.

My son does an hour of footie on a Saturday