Please help me help dd (17) with friendships, I am unintentionally making things worse…

[Watermelon234]

I am at my wits end with worry about her. I was trying to help, but in worry and frustration have ended up telling her that I think her friend is toxic and I don’t think that has helped.

She is a very social person, loves going out and meeting friends. When she is doing this she is happy, bubbly and confident.

The problem is she doesn’t have a close/reliable group of friends to do this with, so socialising is very sporadic and has been worse over he past few months. Because of this her mood changes beyond recognition and she becomes very low and mopey.

She only gets to go out or meet friends if she is invited, doesn’t have a close friend to call on, even to hang out with in houses. She has tried to instigate meet ups but people are generally busy with others so decline. She doesn’t like to ask if she can join in.

This has been an ongoing problem over the years. She makes friends easily, has numerous acquaintances, but everyone of them seem to have closer friends that they do things with. She’s never really had that and I don’t know how to help her. It was fine when she was younger because we met up in groups, instigated by us parents, and the kids joined in but friendships have evolved without my dd.

The toxic friend is a girl my dd sees at college and they share a hobby. My dd sees her as a close friend. Unfortunately, it has become apparent to me that this friend is actually turning other friends against my dd. I have been a bit suspicious of this for a while, so have been watching from the sidelines while they do their hobby, as I didn’t get a good vibe from her at all. The friend has been very active socially over Christmas, and has invited some of my dd’s other friends from a different friend group out with her friend group, but my dd was not included. My dd has gone very quiet, withdrawn and subdued since she heard this. I am fuming, as she doesn’t need this at all at the moment with A levels looming. In my frustration and anger at my dd making excuses for her friend and accepting it as all part of life, I ranted that her friend was toxic.

Today I feel guilty about being angry and not being supportive, but I am so worried she will end up back where she was a few years ago, in a low place with no social options at all. The worry is eating me up. The problem is , because she is mopey, that is not exactly enticing to others, and the invites dry up. The past couple of years have been great in comparison, so I really need to get this right.

please help with any advice.

A counsellor I saw years ago told me an interesting story. A teenage girl suddenly developed school-based anxiety. Until then, she had been happy and achieving at school. Her mum couldn't understand it. Turns out the mum had gone through very similar at her daughter's exact age. As her daughter approached the same age, the mum - without realising - passed her anxiety on to her daughter.
OP, you sound like a wonderful and caring mum. But you must be careful not to do the above. All you can do is be there to listen and support.

She is friendly and warm to everyone, very inclusive, extremely kind, would never say a bad word about anyone.

the thing is, these are traits you see in your daughter as a parent that you think are valuable in friendship. But they’re not necessarily the traits people are looking for in friendships. the majority of people are friendly and warm, but I don’t want everyone as a friend. That’s generic. I want someone who understands me, has the same interests as me, has experienced similar things, will rant with me, will be spontaneous, makes me laugh, challenges my thinking etc. the first word I’d use to describe one of my friends wouldn’t be “friendly”. What personality is there beyond that?

It sounds like your DDs friendship skills could do with being developed, as you say she has never had a close friend.
I think you need to step back, but the best way of teaching about friendship is modelling good friend relationships yourself. Do you have friends that you regularly see?

I'd encourage her to go to a hobby group weekly - martial arts are great for confidence, for example. At least that way she would be regularly seeing the same (hopefully friendly) faces at the group and getting social time that way.

Is she planning on going to university? I know this isn't a good enough reason to by itself but a clean break and fresh start like that could do her the world of good.

Thanks, she works a few hours a week, and does a hobby so has multiple acquaintances. It’s the closer friendships she lacks.

The hobby has been great for the past few years with a diverse range of ages and has led to quite a bit of socialising. It is now that the (toxic) friend is trying to steer the hobby friends away from dd into their own separate group.

Where is the line between support and involvement?

@Watermelon234 multiple posters have explained that there is nothing toxic in this other friends actions.
Do you have friends you see often?

OP I could have written your post last year.

DD on the periphery of a few friendship groups, but no one's priority. Lots of mood swings/sadness about not having anyone to rely on and never being guaranteed to be invited anywhere.

As a result of this, she allowed a toxic friendship to flourish in order to have a 'person'. It made things far worse really as although it helped initially, toxic-friend was ... welll... toxic. Bitching about DD. Picking her up and dropping her so there was constant drama.

DD started Uni this year in another city hundreds of miles away. She went with noone she knows, and although she is still without her one person, it's only her first terms and she is tentatively finding her people and making progress. She feels like this is a fresh start and she can start to form friendships based on who she is without the baggage of previous friendship groups/bitching etc.

It's all very well people saying 'stay out of it' but if your DD is unhappy it's very difficult not to want to fix it. My advice would be to try and keep her head above water until the summer at which point, she can consider a whole fresh start in a whole fresh city and leave the angst of this behind. She will find her people.

You don’t think that some people need more support with making friends? That for some people it doesn’t come easily, especially deeper connections?

I don’t blame all of her friends, the overwhelming majority are lovely, just that they have better and closer connections with others. She is included in the bigger meet ups.

Things are different with the toxic friend, it’s tricky to explain how and why but it feels very different. Probably because she’s actively mixing different friend groups which both include my dd, but excluding my dd. So she is arranging bigger meet ups, but without my dd. My dd is upset, but a bit naive as to what is happening because she trusts her friend.

Support is listening to them and discussing the situations by asking open questions.

interfering is telling them what to do.

it’s a fine balance especially when you see the mood drop. I’m not sure anyone ever gets it completely right.
Ds1 is similar(ish) he has close friends but they don’t like going out to socialise as often as he would like so he’s trying to widen his social circle. There was a bit of a falling out between his friendship group which affected him last year - it’s part of the learning about relationships however. He’s had to reflect himself and learn the life lessons.

@Watermelon234 support is listening, involvement is telling her what she should think and do about her friendships.

Friendship skills involve how to move from acquaintances to friends. It sounds like your DD may not have these skills.

And it is normal for people who are closer friends to socialise and not always invite acquaintances.

@Watermelon234 you want to help your DD develop the skills to make closer friends, but what you are doing is not going to help. It may do the opposite.

That’s the 100 dollar question every parent has to work out for themselves but personally I see more harm done by people who over intervene rather than those who neglect. Obviously, as with most things in life, there’s a happy balance somewhere in the middle.

Ask pointed questions. Steer don’t direct. Switch from top down parenting to “running alongside” parenting and say things like “I wonder how this will pan out?” “How are you planning on handling this?”

As for the toxic friend; these types of girls almost always have underlying issues themselves. You might comment that they invariably are bullied at home and therefore feel the need to control and manipulate others to feel more in control themselves. People get sick of them eventually. If your dd’s patient, there is usually a fall out and a rearrangement of friendships afterwards.

The others are probably saying "It's easier just to not invite the girl with the creepy stalky mother".

Are you this helpful and supportive in all aspects of your life?

I don't think the onus is on you to 'get this right' but I can understand what you mean. I think the really key thing is to listen to her when she talks about friendship dynamics and help her try to work out what's going on. There may be something she's doing/not doing (unintentionally) which isn't helping. She needs to be willing to be proactive and invite people to do things, rather than wait for invites. I know that's hard as I was the same. My dd is the opposite, always organising things, but I know in the past she's found it a bit annoying when people piggy back onto her events, but aren't willing to be proactive themselves and/or get annoyed if they not specifically invited. From my dd's point of view, she puts in a lot of effort to keep up with people and organise things.

Could you help her find ways to meet new people? Perhaps the timing is wrong at the moment, as I know A Levels are on the horizon, but both my children have lots of good friendships and they've both gone out their way to meet people in all sorts of different contexts. They've joined youth groups, gone to camps and festivals, talked to new people when out and about at the gym/pub/clubs, added people on social media who seem their type etc. Dd even made new friends revising for her A Levels, as she went to the local uni library which seemed to be a magnet for sixth formers! It does take confidence and I wouldn't be the same, but then I'm an introvert with less need for a big social life. As an extrovert, or someone who needs to socialise, I think your daughter needs to focus on becoming more proactive.

Can't see any indication that mum is creepy or stalky. Just a mum trying to support her kid and understand how she's feeling. Yet another unhelpful and nasty dig at a mum who's asking for help. Nice.

I think if the DD ever repeated that her mum thought this friend was toxic that would come across as creepy.

Social media sometimes gives that FOMO feeling as well as the impression that others are having fun left right and centre while you are at home doom scrolling. She may not see others suggesting activities and the group rejecting because of money/time/lack of interest but it’s almost certainly happening. Maybe reassure her of this - your h doesn’t automatically want to do everything that you suggest etc

There's a difference between supporting people and managing things for them. Your DD is at an age now where the focus should be firmly on the first. There is nothing you can do to change the behaviour of her friends. You cannot make your DD popular or surround her with people who will offer her healthy friendships. You cannot give her instructions and scripts to follow that you believe will improve things. You are not her, and dont know the people or the situation as she does. How you might want to approach it may be very different from the way she would. So all you can do is listen, follow her lead, offer advice when asked and do what you can do best...which is make sure that whatever happens out in the world, she always has a secure place to come back to where she is valued and loved.
For what it's worth, your DD sounds like she's just been unlucky so far in not finding her people yet. My DS was the same at that age. A few years down the line he had an amazing circle of friends. He'd just not met them at school.

Probably because she’s actively mixing different friend groups which both include my dd, but excluding my dd.

Ask your daughter why none of the other people are including her. You feel like 1 person is not involving your daughter, the reality is several people aren’t involving your daughter. Why does it all rest on this one person to invite her, do the others not want her there? Why happens when your daughter invites the others - do they decline? 17 year olds do everything together including quick and easy things like a walk or long FaceTime calls. You’re saying none of the others in the friend groups do these things with her, but that’s all the fault of this one person? It doesn’t add up.

DD, being 17, could easily have said "It's a bit awks at home because my mum says you're toxic"....

I agree with CharmedCult,

DD1 had a seriously flaky social group post 16 - and a GF I thought let her down fair bit as well. She did have siblings to fall back on - but then she didn't have hobbies your DD has or work and it did impact her.

However she went off to University and has settled really well.

She is currently undergoing assessments for possible SEN - so there may be reasons she struggles more with people but at University she is doing really well - GF still around and appears less flaky and more supportive now despite being at different university.

I don't think it was wrong to point out toxic friends actual behaviors - they can be hard to see at time - but having done that I'd wait for her to talk again about it - if she needs advice she can ask you - she can now think about what you've said and decide if she agrees and what to do about it.

You said that when her socialising becomes sporadic her mood changes beyond recognition and she becomes moody and low. I wondered if it could possibly be the other way around - that her mood swings and low mood are causing friends to back away? This then makes her feel worse, more moody, and its a vicious circle. Often as parents we can't see our children as others do. My son had a friend who wasn't always included in things or invited to hang out, and even my son backed away after a while. The reason being that this boy was really difficult to be with, he is prone to mood swings especially if he didn't get his own way., can be aggressive and vindictive. I'm not saying that your daughter is like this, and not 'victim blaming' either but it might be worth considering if there are reasons that she isn't being involved. She might just have an unrealistic expectation of what friendships can look like at this age - SM can make it look like everyone else is surrounded by groups of BFFs, when the truth is very different.

@Watermelon234

Only empathy here.
It is most probably jealousy.
Very odd responses from some posters.
You absolutely DO need to be involved, SM becomes, very quickly, a whole new level of bullying/mental health issues. It involves constant notifications, in their face 24/7.

I am going through precisely the same thing. You and your DD will be fine. You are doing very well as a mother IMO. Thisis such a vulnerable time with exams and confidence etc. If a friend is toxic, damn well point it out.